Facing Gay Rift, Anglican Sees ‘two-track’ Church

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1933834' date='Jul 28 2009, 12:07 PM']Come with us on the fifth annual John Paul II pilgrimage for the Conversion of England next year and I will take you there personally. [/quote]

Gosh, I'll have to bring my family for a visit to England sometime.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1934089' date='Jul 28 2009, 10:38 PM']Gosh, I'll have to bring my family for a visit to England sometime.[/quote]


YES! YES!

This year we had a father with his daughter, who is #7 of 8, and was due for some dad time

The youngest walker was 12. It's officially "young adults", but the kids can walk along the last day, for example, and stay for the sisters' youth camp

Lil' Red: you have just earned yourself my undying love. Liek srsly.

To get within the outer margins of back on topic

I've thought it very tempting to hope for discord in the ranks of the Anglicans, but also the SSPX, for example. But if those groups split like that, and a part of them then saw the light and swum the Tiber (or, in some cases, re-affirmed their position on the right shore, no swimming necessary ), wouldn't we be like... the rebound faith?

Of course, it's better to grow into the Church while in a position where you are fed authentic teaching, and that is easier to achieve if you are in the Catholic Church and not being preached to by someone not entirely of a mind with Peter every Sunday*. But it would be infinitely better if in the process of resolving their internal differences, they wouldn't just reach consensus or a compromise, but the Truth.

*Let's ignore that this isn't always the case in the Church, either...

[eagle_eye222001]

The stones are cracking.

----------------
Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/lifehouse/track/storm"]Lifehouse - Storm[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Mercy me]

To me it seems that this is what happens when moral relativism takes hold. There is no wrong.

[Archaeology cat]

where is the pilgrimage? Walsingham? And what dates?

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1934626' date='Jul 29 2009, 11:33 AM']where is the pilgrimage? Walsingham? And what dates?[/quote]

It's a 3-day (although we officially start Thursday afternoon and end Monday morning) walking pilgrimage from Ely to Walsingham, 49 miles. If you think that's far: 12-year-old girls do it. Really cool 12-year-old girls, but still.

I'm not sure about the dates yet...

[url="http://godzdogz.op.org/2007/07/walking-walsingham-way.html"]Here is a blog post about last year's[/url]. Next year will be no. 5!

We celebrated Mass at different places, including "former" Catholic churches like the Cathedral of Ely and a ruined(!) Clunian (iirc) priory - the first time the pilgrimage went there, it was the first Mass to be celebrated there since the Reformation.

It's walk hard, pray hard, and play hard I'm already counting down to next year (even though I don't know to which date I'm supposed to be counting )

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1934515' date='Jul 28 2009, 11:20 PM']To me it seems that this is what happens when moral relativism takes hold. There is no wrong.[/quote]
It's what happens when there's no authority. Do what you want, do what makes you feel good. It's what leads at the most extreme to David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. There's no difference in principle between the Branch Davidians and the Anglicans, only a difference in degree.

[Archaeology cat]

Very cool, Venite.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1934665' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:44 PM']It's what happens when there's no authority. Do what you want, do what makes you feel good. It's what leads at the most extreme to David Koresh and the Branch Davidians. There's no difference in principle between the Branch Davidians and the Anglicans, only a difference in degree.[/quote]



Love the avatar btw

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1934666' date='Jul 29 2009, 03:47 PM']Very cool, Venite. [/quote]

again

I'll implore upon Rosamundi to post the details of next year's adventure. She was here this year as well, and will still have access to PM by the time we know the date etc.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1934668' date='Jul 29 2009, 02:11 PM'] again

I'll implore upon Rosamundi to post the details of next year's adventure. She was here this year as well, and will still have access to PM by the time we know the date etc. [/quote]
Thanks. I doubt I'd be able to go (young child and all), but I'd like to at least pray along with the people going. I recently found the litany for Our Lady of Walsingham.

[cappie]

When fudge becomes farce:

So the Archbishop has spoken out concerning the inflammatory action of the Episcopal Church in America in voting to allow active homosexuals to enter holy orders. I must say my heart sank the second I looked at this response, the sheer length convincing me that what lay ahead was the usual Anglican tactic of fudge and gobbledygook in an attempt to paper over cracks. I was right.

If nothing else we Anglicans have become masters at using lots of words to say nothing much within official responses that can be interpreted in multiple ways. Sadly though this woolly approach is no longer going to pacify within a church stretched to breaking point. The Christology of orthodox and liberals is not only different these days, it is diametrically opposed. What one believes actually negates the other expression of faith and no amount of kindly words and generous actions will change that.

So what we need is clarity and authority. The Church of England must decide what it wants to be. A part of the Universal Church preaching the faith in sympathy with Christians elsewhere and in obedience to an orthodox understanding of scripture. Or else a radical Church of the West that seeks to redefine faith for a new generation, willing to re-interpret where the Spirit is believed to be leading. Now is the time for decision. It is one or other not both for, as scripture warns, a house divided will fall.

But sadly such decisive leadership is not to be found in ++Rowan. Once again the duality of his message appeases nobody and he is left looking like a kindly old school master struggling to cope with the rigours of modern life. I am sorry to attack his post today, as I genuinly think he is a good soul struggling to make something out of a terrible mess, but this latest statement simply will not/cannot do.

So what IS ++Rowan proposing? Well rather than admonishing or congratulating the Americans, Rowan goes for a slap on the wrist and an act of appeasement. What we are offered is a bewildering (and totally unprecedented) vision of a ‘two track’ church. On the first track will exist those Christians who hold traditional views on sexuality and on the other those who wish to embrace the more radical view. Both are to be seen as loyal Anglicans, though the first stream more so than the second (eh?), and both must be commended for living out their faith in the way they feel called. In my opinion this farcical fudge comes across as being as desperate as it is unworkable and weak.

What about our ecclesiology, the theology of the church which teaches that we are to be one? And what about truth? Christ did not, to my knowledge, die for the sins of the world in a manner that called people to follow through the choice of different tracks!

Then in a lesser way we might ask how it is to manifest. Because sexuality is not the only issue over which their is disagreement and a chronic lack of clear leadership. What of the huge difference of belief regarding women’s ordination? Are we opponents sat on the first or second track…or may both pro and anti WO people choose the track that fits best according to their views on sexuality?? What of the congregations where some are first track and some second, who will minister to them? The whole thing is a total shambles and a farce and today I am lamenting the fact that I am an Anglican. I am embarrassed and confused by what my church is teaching.

Surely everyone, regardless of belief, can see that this represents nothing more and nothing less than total anarchy. Believe what you will but please remember we are family! That is not good enough for a church with a mission and a purpose. We need to seek the truth and witness to it in love.

Either it is God’s will that active homosexual clergy can be ordained or it is not. Either women may share this calling or they may not. So the Church of England must decide; either embrace these innovations and compensate those unable to follow or discipline those who acting without authority and who are thus preaching heresy, no matter how sincere their belief. Both those paths lead to a parting of the ways but in reality that happened long ago. No amount of papering over cracks can hide the deep rift that now exists and I fear that an unwillingness to follow either path could lead to a collapse of the whole operation. A house divided cannot stand and a Church without an agreed set of beliefs cannot possibly hope to convert and inspire.

All I can discern at the heart of the Archbishops writing is a willingness to accept pluralism due to a deep desire for unity. But truth is not a matter of opinion and the Archbishop of all people should know that.

Only a complete fool could deny the deep damage that accepting WO and the consecration of active homosexuals has done to the Anglican Church. The schism which ++Rowan fears is not held back by this statement it is worsened. Synod be warned, a church preaching the Catholic faith will not belong on track one or track two. It will belong in a different church.

[url="http://sbarnabas.com/blog/"]http://sbarnabas.com/blog/[/url]

[VeniteAdoremus]

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='cappie' post='1935378' date='Jul 30 2009, 12:18 AM']Both those paths lead to a parting of the ways but in reality that happened long ago. No amount of papering over cracks can hide the deep rift that now exists and I fear that an unwillingness to follow either path could lead to a collapse of the whole operation. A house divided cannot stand and a Church without an agreed set of beliefs cannot possibly hope to convert and inspire.[/quote]
The Catholic Church knows just how you feel!

[Marie-Therese]

Fr. Cappie --

What kills me is the simple fact that the Anglican church is turning a huge doctrinal schism into a semantic argument. I mean, give me a break. "Two STYLES of being Anglican"?? Is the Archbishop serious?

This is not a dispute over whether the liturgical vestments need some sprucing up. According to the Archbishop, if you happen to believe in Scripture and the Truth of Christ, then you are one "style" of Anglican, while if you completely disregard the Scripture and decide to do whatever the heck you feel like, that just means you are an Anglican of a different color. Were I Anglican, I would be humiliated and embarrassed beyond words for this farcical position.

This is what happens when people cave to trying to please everyone and stop standing on principle. Their "church" becomes nothing more than a joke. No wonder people hold Christians at large in so little esteem, when it seems that the Church itself doesn't even know what it believes anymore.

Praise God I am Catholic. Prayers for the Anglicans.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' post='1935534' date='Jul 30 2009, 10:44 AM']This is what happens when people cave to trying to please everyone and stop standing on principle. Their "church" becomes nothing more than a joke. No wonder people hold Christians at large in so little esteem, when it seems that the Church itself doesn't even know what it believes anymore.[/quote]
This is what happens when the Church is no longer the Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth but simply a social club, a gathering if vaguely similarly-minded people who have differences of opinion on what in another setting would be mutually exclusive positions.