I'm Too Dumb To Be A Christian...

[Bruce S]

In order to understand I must:

-learn Greek and Hebrew and Latin

-obtain the correct manuscript/text

-know where 2,000 years of commentaries are

-learn the correct exegetical requirements

-be trained in apologetics

-excel in hermeneutics

-have the appropriate measure of The Spirit

-comprehend the mysterious and esoteric

-learn to dissect intricate interpretations

-have the annointing of prophetic revelations

-obtain special spiritual insight glasses

-stop thinking for myself...

(so I can make a spectacle of myself)


[topic stolen from another site, but OH SO TRUE ... ]

[dUSt]

Or, you can accept the fact that we [b]can't[/b] understand and submit to the authority of Christ's Church.

God bless.

[willguy]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 1 2004, 08:01 AM'] Or, you can accept the fact that we [b]can't[/b] understand and submit to the authority of Christ's Church.

God bless. [/quote]
^--yes, that is much easier.

[mulls]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Apr 1 2004, 08:01 AM'] Or, you can accept the fact that we [b]can't[/b] understand and submit to the authority of Christ's Church.

God bless. [/quote]
then what's the point of this website, and arguing, and debating, and learning, it we accept the fact that we can't understand?



well, i know i don't understand.....but as for the people who believe it.....

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 1 2004, 06:15 AM'] In order to understand I must:

-learn Greek and Hebrew and Latin

-obtain the correct manuscript/text

-know where 2,000 years of commentaries are

-learn the correct exegetical requirements

-be trained in apologetics

-excel in hermeneutics

-have the appropriate measure of The Spirit

-comprehend the mysterious and esoteric

-learn to dissect intricate interpretations

-have the annointing of prophetic revelations

-obtain special spiritual insight glasses

-stop thinking for myself...

(so I can make a spectacle of myself)


[topic stolen from another site, but OH SO TRUE ... ] [/quote]
This is what I had to do when I was a Protestant, everyone claimed they were right. I was confused and often doubted myself, I was obligated to become a semi-Bible Scholar because I was afraid I would be led astray.

But in the Catholic Church, you don't have to worry about that.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='Apr 1 2004, 12:56 PM'] This is what I had to do when I was a Protestant, everyone claimed they were right. I was confused and often doubted myself, I was obligated to become a semi-Bible Scholar because I was afraid I would be led astray.

But in the Catholic Church, you don't have to worry about that. [/quote]
as a Christian, I'm glad to learn for myself...to search the scriptures and have the Lord reveal it all to me. even if its a bit at a time. the pastors at my church help A LOT, being that they've been in the ministry MUCH longer than I...but I'll gladly spend the rest of my life learning and searching and questioning EVERYTHING that anyone tries to tell me is of God.

and I'd like to have the ease that you do, Paladin, but there are things that the Roman Catholic church believes that go beyond the scope of the Bible..."expanding" upon if you will, to a point that puts me ill at ease.

and please don't ask me all of them...we're going thru them all on the different topics here. and I am learning.

Praise God for uphill struggles.
Praise God for the Bible.
Praise God for everything He has done, is doing, and all He will do.

amen

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 1 2004, 05:15 AM'] In order to understand I must:

-learn Greek and Hebrew and Latin

-obtain the correct manuscript/text

-know where 2,000 years of commentaries are

-learn the correct exegetical requirements

-be trained in apologetics

-excel in hermeneutics

-have the appropriate measure of The Spirit

-comprehend the mysterious and esoteric

-learn to dissect intricate interpretations

-have the annointing of prophetic revelations

-obtain special spiritual insight glasses

-stop thinking for myself...

(so I can make a spectacle of myself)


[topic stolen from another site, but OH SO TRUE ... ] [/quote]
Only, of course, if that is what you believe Christianity to be.

If that were true, many modern day Saints would have never been canonized. I don't believe Mother Teresa knew Hebrew or Greek, nor do I think St. Pio was a scholar. In fact, if this were true, St. Francis of Assisi and St. John Vianney would never have been canonized.

The one thing they all shared in common was a love of Jesus Christ and a love of the Church. Some of them never had formal training, nor would they be considered Theologians, by today's standards. Unfortunately, in this day and age, we sometimes stress the intellectual over the spiritual, and tend to try to understand and talk about God rather than truly fall in love with Him. In essence, we want to have a reason for everything instead of trusting in faith.

With regard to the last part, most of those spiritual insights were not attained through reading a book but through tremendous suffering, prayer, and perseverance through it all. Some things we learn from the catechists in Heaven rather than those on earth.

It is actually quite a simple path to follow, for in the words of St. Pio, "pray, hope and don't worry."

God Bless

[Brother Adam]

Kinda crazy isn't Bruce? There isn't anything wrong to study to show thyself approved, yet so many people have studies their whole lives to come up with totally different conclusions all holding to the Bible alone as authority, and all believing they are lead by God. I'll admit that is bothersome.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]and I'd like to have the ease that you do, Paladin, but there are things that the Roman Catholic church believes that go beyond the scope of the Bible..."expanding" upon if you will, to a point that puts me ill at ease.[/quote]

Which begs the question- if something isn't specifically written into the Bible does that mean it can't be true? Like sola scriptura, the biblical canon, the age of reason, the Trinity, pews, potluck dinners, special music, and so on? The Catholic Church is subject to the scriptures, but does not believe only the scriptures bear authority. Such as most protestant churches believe their pastors bear some sort of authority in interpreting the scriptures and leading the church.

[Bruce S]

[quote]But in the Catholic Church, you don't have to worry about that. [/quote]

Or anything for that matter, just ask... and the pre packaged answer [approved this year, if not last year] will suffice.

It is a denomination that is just so easy, ask Father Jones and go with the proferred answer.

Of course, that often went awry too, ask Tertzle, he was just doing what they told him too, and look what happened to HIM when people started thinking independly.

Darn, make fundrasing a lot harder, had to brush up on the Tithing materials from the OT that were out of favor...

Grin.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 1 2004, 03:36 PM']
Which begs the question- if something isn't specifically written into the Bible does that mean it can't be true? Like sola scriptura, the biblical canon, the age of reason, the Trinity, pews, potluck dinners, special music, and so on? The Catholic Church is subject to the scriptures, but does not believe only the scriptures bear authority. Such as most protestant churches believe their pastors bear some sort of authority in interpreting the scriptures and leading the church. [/quote]
first off...word bruce.

secondly, truth brother adam, there are things that may not be written in the bible, but one can deduce from enough reading of it.

we don't need some conglomoration of MAN telling us what is and isn't biblical. the early church needed it because they had no bible, no real structure, no help. and thats why the apostles and disciples went out and preached to everyone...that is why the EARLY church needed clarification. and besides the letters (scriptures) and teachings the apostles had, which were DIRECTLY from Jesus, what did the early church have? WE have the bible and good solid brothers in Christ, ALONG with BIBLICAL interpretations and commentaries that HELP, but are not doctrine in any way.

Chuck Missler? awesome brother. www.khouse.org
Miles McPherson? also blessed! www.therocksandiego.org
Joe Sebalic? (SP?j) dope
Chuck Smith? dope
Jay Vernon McGee? DOPE!....and these are just a couple.

I've never discounted or disputed the fact of there being things not SPECIFICALLY written into the bible, like the trinity, or sola scriptura, or the age of reason...but they're not hard to find in the bible...even without concordances or lexicons or mexicans.

[amarkich]

Lumberjack,
You should read a book called "Scripture Alone?: 21 Reasons to Reject Sola Scriptura".

God bless.

Edited April 1, 2004 by amarkich

[CatholicCrusader]

Lumberjack,

Everything you said is either just makes no sense whatsoever or is completely contradictory...

[quote]secondly, truth brother adam, there are things that may not be written in the bible, but one can deduce from enough reading of it.[/quote]

Who is to say who is right and who is wrong if everyone can deduce his own personal "truth" from reading the Bible, even when these so-called "truths" blatantly contradict one another??

If you can answer all of the points made here:
[url="http://www.truecatholic.org/protfaqs.htm"]http://www.truecatholic.org/protfaqs.htm[/url]
then maybe we will consider your bogus Bible alone ideas. If you cannot, then your Bible along heresy falls.

[quote]we don't need some conglomoration of MAN telling us what is and isn't biblical.[/quote]

Yet, you personally can come to all truth, better than 2000 years of holy Saints and guidanceby the Holy Ghost. That sounds VERY prideful to me..


[quote]the early church needed it because they had no bible, no real structure, no help[/quote]

Have you studied history...at all? The Church in the early centuries had a heirarchy, a structure. That is structure, yet you claim NOW that Gutenburg (A CATHOLIC) has created the printing press, NOW after 1400 years of un-structure, now we have the BIBLE--the prefect structure--everyone interpret for himself and no matter what crazy and bogus idea he gets, it is correct. Yes, that seems a lot like sound structure to me, as well..

[quote]and besides the letters (scriptures) and teachings the apostles had, which were DIRECTLY from Jesus, what did the early church have[/quote]

Exactly, their Letters AND TEACHINGS...their TEACHINGS are what the Church holds onto while the protestant heresies reject them...these teachings are known as Tradition--the same Tradition to which St. Paul exhonerated his followers for adhering.

[quote]WE have the bible and good solid brothers in Christ[/quote]

The Church has had the Bible since around AD 394, and all the Saints throughout the ages are much better than your "solid brothers in Christ" (those who are outside the Church are ourside Christ; therefore these brothers are NOT in Christ).

[quote]ALONG with BIBLICAL interpretations and commentaries that HELP[/quote]

What does it matter what SOMEONE ELSE interprets? You have power second only to God, or equal to God Himself! You can read the Bible and create your own "infallible" "truth" because you are supossidly guided with infallibility by the Holy Ghost....who cares what someone else uses as interpretation. You have all the power in Heaven and on Earth to create any "truth" you wish...

Please make some intelligable comments for defendin the bogus "sola Scriptura" heresy (I guess there really aren't any), but at least don't blatantly contradict your own beliefs back and forth as it suits you to respond to an accusation of your bogus theory.

God bless.

You can't find Truth but in the Church of Our Lord (for He alone is the Way, the Truth, and the Life).

[Paladin D]

[quote name='Bruce S' date='Apr 1 2004, 04:43 PM'] Or anything for that matter, just ask... and the pre packaged answer [approved this year, if not last year] will suffice. [/quote]
Or just open up the Bible, pick a couple verses, and come to the conclusion that the Earth must be flat, revealed to me by the Holy Spirit... 100% guaranteed.

[the lumberjack]

i submit myself to the elders of the church, and learn everything I can from them. But even my pastor tells me to look it up for myself.

who EVER made claims to be anything other than a sinful man, justified by my faith (and relationship) in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Almighty Living God who reigns?

thank you.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]secondly, truth brother adam, there are things that may not be written in the bible, but one can deduce from enough reading of it.[/quote]

Any Catholic or non-Catholic would likely agree. You can deduce many things from the Bible, right or wrong as they may be. It's called exegesis.

[quote]we don't need some conglomoration of MAN telling us what is and isn't biblical.[/quote]

Excellent. We can then rule out Fundamentalism, Non-Denominationalism, Lutheranism, Calvinism, Reformedism, Methodism, JWism, Mormonism, Baptistism, Pentacostalism, and every other denomination which began with the biblical exegesis of MAN.

[quote]the early church needed it because they had no bible, no real structure, no help. [/quote]

I'm assuming your speaking of Apostolic leadership.

[quote]and thats why the apostles and disciples went out and preached to everyone...that is why the EARLY church needed clarification.  and besides the letters (scriptures) and teachings the apostles had, which were DIRECTLY from Jesus, what did the early church have?[/quote]

The Apostles were given authority from Jesus, and within this authority given the directive to hand that authority down to others. You are right, without the Apostles we'd likely have seen the Church fall apart very quickly. Yet, we see the current state of the Church and see thousands of personal interpretations leading to gross misrepresentations of biblical truths. Such as the approval of homosexuality, contraception, and even abortion. We see the approval of woman-pastors, the denial of Christ's divinity and humanity, even in some sects the denial of Christ's divinity. Leaving me wondering if a central teaching leadership isn't a good thing. There is no one to tell a pastor that original sin does not exist if he so chooses to interpret scripture that way. Scripture alone leaves us in endless circles of debate, and often times truth getting shot down in the crossfire.

The teaching that the Apostles had was directly from Christ. Why should one accept that this teaching is impossible to be preserved? Did it disappear in the 4th century after the canonization of scripture?

[quote]WE have the bible and good solid brothers in Christ, ALONG with BIBLICAL interpretations and commentaries that HELP, but are not doctrine in any way.[/quote]

Yes, systematic theology is doctrine. The Bible is not a book of doctrine. It is the record of the revelation of God to his people and his dealings with his creation throughout history. While we do have the Bible, the canon of scripture is handed to us through the authority of the Church of the time, which is called tradition. While there are "solid brothers in Christ" we can clearly see that being a Christian does not gaurentee accurate doctrine.

[quote]I've never discounted or disputed the fact of there being things not SPECIFICALLY written into the bible, like the trinity, or sola scriptura, or the age of reason...but they're not hard to find in the bible...even without concordances or lexicons or mexicans.[/quote]

On the other hand I have seen Christians time and again "prove" that sola scriptura, the trinity, and the age of reason all are wrong, using the Bible alone, and what they say makes a certian amount of sense. That is, it Could be that way, but who is to say that it actually is?

[CatholicCrusader]

You heretical religion makes those claims...

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Apr 1 2004, 04:50 PM'] You heretical religion makes those claims... [/quote]
???

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 1 2004, 03:37 PM'] i submit myself to the elders of the church, and learn everything I can from them. But even my pastor tells me to look it up for myself.

who EVER made claims to be anything other than a sinful man, justified by my faith (and relationship) in Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Almighty Living God who reigns?

thank you. [/quote]
[quote]i submit myself to the elders of the church, and learn everything I can from them.  But even my pastor tells me to look it up for myself.[/quote]


But that's exactly what the pastor down the street does, and he believes something totally differen than your pastor.

There's got to be something wrong with this.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Apr 1 2004, 03:50 PM'] You heretical religion makes those claims... [/quote]
CC,

Dude, I admire your furver for the True Church. But there are charitable ways of evangelizing.

Bruce, though very anti-Catholic on the outside, has been with us for quite a few months now. He won't be "shut up" by cracking a whip. Let's keep it civil (and REAL).

You don't have to beat around the bush, but you likewise don't need to beat the bush.