Infant Baptism

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1935931' date='Jul 30 2009, 07:55 PM']Recent popes, including B16, have lessened it's influence with good reason. One cannot be happy for all eternity outside the prescence of God. Now certainly the beautific vision is lessened considerably for those who have not gone through life's trials and certainly there is some negative impact of not receiving full baptism. God only knows what that it. It has been pretty much cleared up that limbo has never been doctrine, has no chance of being dogma and is simply a speculation like the rest of the opinions on the matter. We'll find out on the other side.[/quote]

There is stronger evidence that unbaptized infants go to limbo than that they go to heaven.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi

[thessalonian]

No, there is more speculation that they do. There is no offical doctrine, not teaching on the matter. Doctrine does not support one over the other. Just speculations. If there is such overwhelming evidence then quote Church teaching for me. The Catechism, decrees of councils and popes.... Not individual opinions. I'm waiting..... Again, I am fine with it if you want to believe in limbo. I don't.

Edited July 31, 2009 by thessalonian

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936722' date='Jul 31 2009, 01:30 PM']There is stronger evidence that unbaptized infants go to limbo than that they go to heaven.[/quote]
I don't think there's actual [i]evidence[/i] either way. Speculation, yes. Opinions, yes. Teachings? Probably those too. Not evidence though.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1936730' date='Jul 31 2009, 01:47 PM']No, there is more speculation that they do. There is no offical doctrine, not teaching on the matter. Doctrine does not support one over the other. Just speculations. If there is such overwhelming evidence then quote Church teaching for me. The Catechism, decrees of councils and popes.... Not individual opinions. I'm waiting..... Again, I am fine with it if you want to believe in limbo. I don't.[/quote]

"It (The Roman Church) teaches. . . . . that the souls . . . . . of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places." (Pope John XII, [i]Nequaquam sine dolore[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 926)

"Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds" (Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1306).

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936766' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:25 PM']"It (The Roman Church) teaches. . . . . that the souls . . . . . of those who die in mortal sin, or with only original sin descend immediately into hell; however, to be punished with different penalties and in different places." (Pope John XII, [i]Nequaquam sine dolore[/i]: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 926)

"Moreover, the souls of those who depart in actual mortal sin or in original sin only, descend immediately into hell but to undergo punishments of different kinds" (Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1306).[/quote]

Well, if we are looking at this to give us more insight, then it suffices to say that these infants will suffer.......... this is why I bring up this subject. I have been pondering as to why the Catholic Church has not made a definiitve teaching on this, as there are abortions and miscarriges.

We with our human understanding cannot fathom a just and loving God allowing the little ones, to suffer who have no knowledge.

Edited July 31, 2009 by "Kyrie eleison"

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936816' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:41 PM']Well, if we are looking at this to give us more insight, then it suffices to say that these infants will suffer.......... this is why I bring up this subject. I have been pondering as to why the Catholic Church has not made a definiitve teaching on this, as there are abortions and miscarriges.

We with our human understanding cannot fathom a just and loving God allowing the little ones, who have no knowledge to suffer.[/quote]

Obviously unbaptized infants would not have the beatific vision, but there is clearly no other punishment.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936819' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:43 PM']Obviously unbaptized infants would not have the beatific vision, but there is clearly no other punishment.[/quote]

I tend to believe that Jesus does not want anyone to hinder the the 'little ones' to come to him that they may in some way or form experience the beatific vision, for it is not of their own fault they were not baptized.

It leads me to wonder.....should we pray for these innocent souls so they may freed of whatever punishment if any is brought upon them.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936831' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:51 PM']I tend to believe that Jesus does not want anyone to hinder the the 'little ones' to come to him that they may in some way or form experience the beatific vision, for it is not of their own fault they were not baptized.

It leads me to wonder.....should we pray for these innocent souls so they may freed of whatever punishment if any is brought upon them.[/quote]

If unbaptized infants do indeed go to limbo, it isn't possible that they would somehow end up in heaven. They would be in limbo in eternity. As I have stated, however, that would not be so bad. Infants' limbo, in the general opinion of theologians, is a natural paradise. It would be like being in the Garden of Eden.

Note well, though, the Catechism does state that we can pray for those unbaptized infants who die: "With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God's mercy and to pray for their salvation." ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1283)

Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936819' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:43 PM']Obviously unbaptized infants would not have the beatific vision, but there is clearly no other punishment.[/quote]

Doesn't seem that obvious to me, nor to the rest of the Church, as there hasn't been any doctrine declared on the issue....

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936840' date='Jul 31 2009, 03:57 PM']Doesn't seem that obvious to me, nor to the rest of the Church, as there hasn't been any doctrine declared on the issue.... [/quote]


Again, I know that it is not in our time but God's time that the answer shall be revealed, but, my question is why is it taking so long. When I was just a going through the motions Catholic, my mom who is devout, would always bug me as to when I was going to get my children baptized. She always wanted me to get them baptized as soon as I could after they were born.

I know that one of the Church fathers stated not to even wait 8 days as done by the Jews in circumsicion.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936872' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:14 PM']Again, I know that it is not in our time but God's time that the answer shall be revealed, but, my question is why is it taking so long. When I was just a going through the motions Catholic, my mom who is devout, would always bug me as to when I was going to get my children baptized. She always wanted me to get them baptized as soon as I could after they were born.

I know that one of the Church fathers stated not to even wait 8 days as done by the Jews in circumsicion.[/quote]

That Church Father was right on:

"Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people, but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently, but so that, when danger of death is imminent, they be baptized in the form of the Church, early without delay, even by a layman or woman, if a priest should be lacking, just as is contained more fully in the decree of the Armenians" (The Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1349)

Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936872' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:14 PM']Again, I know that it is not in our time but God's time that the answer shall be revealed, but, my question is why is it taking so long. When I was just a going through the motions Catholic, my mom who is devout, would always bug me as to when I was going to get my children baptized. She always wanted me to get them baptized as soon as I could after they were born.

I know that one of the Church fathers stated not to even wait 8 days as done by the Jews in circumsicion.[/quote]

Oh, we should certainly endeavor to have our children baptized as soon as we possibly can. The Church is very clear on this. God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments, but that doesn't mean that they themselves aren't important!! They are the ordinary means of salvation and we should not take them for granted. Especially when one is aware of their necessity.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936879' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:20 PM']God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments, but that doesn't mean that they themselves aren't important!![/quote]

But we do not know if God does indeed justify infants who die without baptism of water before their death (with the exception of infant martyrs).

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936879' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:20 PM']Oh, we should certainly endeavor to have our children baptized as soon as we possibly can. The Church is very clear on this. God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments, but that doesn't mean that they themselves aren't important!! They are the ordinary means of salvation and we should not take them for granted. Especially when one is aware of their necessity.[/quote]

I praise God so much as I am learning more and more about the Church and why we are given the sacraments. No, we should never take them for granted. I now worry with grief about my nephew who is not baptized yet.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936885' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:23 PM']But we do not know if God does indeed justify infants who die without baptism of water before their death (with the exception of infant martyrs).[/quote]

True, we don't know. Which is why we ought to work with the sacraments.

But when the question comes to those infants who, for whatever reason, did not receive baptism... Well, like we've said. We don't know. But God [i]can[/i] work outside of the sacraments. He's not bound to them. So, it's entirely possible that in his great mercy and love they too may reach salvation.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936886' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:24 PM']I praise God so much as I am learning more and more about the Church and why we are given the sacraments. No, we should never take them for granted. I now worry with grief about my nephew who is not baptized yet.[/quote]

I have a niece and two nephews who are not baptized. I pray for them and their parents each and everyday. And it is a holy desire to wish them baptized. But, I have great hope that God will not punish these little ones for their parents' ignorance.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1936903' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:31 PM']I have a niece and two nephews who are not baptized. I pray for them and their parents each and everyday. And it is a holy desire to wish them baptized. But, I have great hope that God will not punish these little ones for their parents' ignorance.[/quote]

More and more my sister is getting involved in the church she is now attending. My niece, her older daughter, who is 5 was attending mass off and on, has even stated that her church now is much more fun, than ours'.

It really does sadden me. The other day when she was at my house, she was looking at my altar. There were several little prayer books and she took one of them. They have all the Catholic prayers and pictures of the saints. We both were looking at the pictures and and I told her to never forget Mama Mary. She knows that she is the mother of Jesus. I am hoping that if I plant some seeds, when she gets older, she may come back to the Catholic faith.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1936877' date='Jul 31 2009, 05:18 PM']That Church Father was right on:

"Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people, but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently, but so that, when danger of death is imminent, they be baptized in the form of the Church, early without delay, even by a layman or woman, if a priest should be lacking, just as is contained more fully in the decree of the Armenians" (The Ecumenical Council of Florence: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 1349)[/quote]

I was contemplating doing a lay baptism for my nephew. I don't know if you read the circumstances, which there is a post. Would this be considered a valid baptism?

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936955' date='Jul 31 2009, 06:58 PM']I was contemplating doing a lay baptism for my nephew. I don't know if you read the circumstances, which there is a post. Would this be considered a valid baptism?[/quote]

Unfortunately, I don't think you can... I mean, you [i]could[/i], as in, it would be valid... but...

I asked my spiritual director if I could baptize my niece. And he said no, not unless there was a "reason to believe the child would be raised Catholic."

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1936955' date='Jul 31 2009, 04:58 PM']I was contemplating doing a lay baptism for my nephew. I don't know if you read the circumstances, which there is a post. Would this be considered a valid baptism?[/quote]

Provided that you have the intention of doing that which the Church does and provided that you pour water on your infant nephew's head while saying: 'I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,' your infant nephew would doubtless be validly baptized, regardless of any other circumstances.

It must be noted that, for you nephew's baptism to be licit (i.e., in accordance with canon law), your nephew would need to be baptized by a Catholic priest or deacon with all the rites prescribed by the Church (and with the consent of at least one parent or guardian) unless he was in danger of death.

However, "If the infant is in danger of death, he is to be baptized without any delay" (CIC, can. 867 §2). "In a case of necessity, any person who has the requisite intention may do so" (CIC, can. 861 §2).

If your nephew were ever in serious danger of death (e.g., from a grave illness), it would certainly be acceptable for you to baptize him. Nay more, if you were present with your nephew, it would be your duty to baptize him.

Edited July 31, 2009 by Resurrexi