Luke 2

[StColette]

You might also point out the verse or two that follows that statement, that Jesus went with them and was obedient to Mary and Joseph. It shows the right of a parent over a child, regardless who that child is (God or not). Mary & Joseph have parental authority over Christ, even though he is God. Out of obedience and respect, Jesus follows the authority of Mary & Joseph.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='StColette' post='1942109' date='Aug 6 2009, 08:02 PM']You might also point out the verse or two that follows that statement, that Jesus went with them and was obedient to Mary and Joseph. It shows the right of a parent over a child, regardless who that child is (God or not). Mary & Joseph have parental authority over Christ, even though he is God. Out of obedience and respect, Jesus follows the authority of Mary & Joseph.[/quote]
I think I pointed that out already, but I'll have to double-check. The conversation started with the familiar argument that we shouldn't honour Mary because Jesus "rebuked" her in that passage.

[Luigi]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1941792' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:56 AM']Not accepting God's will is a sin. Not understanding God's will is not a sin. Who of us always understands fully why God does what He does? It's not a sin to question and ask for clarity, as long as we accept it in the end regardless o whether we understand why or not.[/quote]

THAT! Ditto. BIP!

[Luigi]

"That's pretty much what I said, but the response I keep getting is that Mary was implying God had wronged her, and, in his eyes, that's automatically a sin because it, to him, shows a lack of faith on her part. He tried to justify that with Romans 14, but that passage speaks of faith in regards to dietary practices."

Tell your bud that qestioning does not indicate a lack of faith; it indicates a lack of knowledge, a lack of understanding, but not a lack of faith. And besides, faith is not a solid thing like a steel ingot - it varies, waxes, wanes, strengthens, weakens, grows, changes - but as long as it's there then it's still faith.

The Hebrews in the desert questioned Moses; God eventually labeled them "a stiff-necked people" but he didn't abandon them. Job questioned God, as already mentioned, but Job still had faith. Peter questioned his own ability to walk on water - which could be interpreted as questioning God - but he still followed Jesus. The psalmist questioned God when he wrote, "My God, my God, why have you abandoned me?" and even Jesus questioned God when he quoted the psalmist as he hung on the cross.

Upshot: Everybody questions God sometimes, but it's not a sin, and it doesn't even indicate a lack of faith.

Your friend's interpretation of Mary's question is so strict as to be completely incorrect.

[Archaeology cat]

I'm just getting irritated with it and thus not expressing myself well, but if anyone else wants a go, here's the link: [url="http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?topic=26921&post=520017&uid=5584629838&post520017="]thread[/url].

[tinytherese]

I suggest that you just agree to disagree at this point. You've both made your points and your friend is just showing rigid stubbornness. I once was in a debate with one of my Catholic friends in high school, my best friend actually (apart from Jesus.) It was regarding homosexuality. I gave her all that I could give but she still refused to budge on what she believed. So we just shook hands and agreed to disagree because neither of us was going to change her position.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1942693' date='Aug 7 2009, 04:30 PM']I suggest that you just agree to disagree at this point. You've both made your points and your friend is just showing rigid stubbornness. I once was in a debate with one of my Catholic friends in high school, my best friend actually (apart from Jesus.) It was regarding homosexuality. I gave her all that I could give but she still refused to budge on what she believed. So we just shook hands and agreed to disagree because neither of us was going to change her position.[/quote]
That's my plan

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1942693' date='Aug 7 2009, 10:30 AM']I suggest that you just agree to disagree at this point. You've both made your points and your friend is just showing rigid stubbornness. I once was in a debate with one of my Catholic friends in high school, my best friend actually (apart from Jesus.) It was regarding homosexuality. I gave her all that I could give but she still refused to budge on what she believed. So we just shook hands and agreed to disagree because neither of us was going to change her position.[/quote]
Story of my life.

[Katholikos]

I looked at the first and last pages. One cannot have logical discussions with illogical, barely literate people. Shake the dust from your sandals . . .

[Luigi]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1942693' date='Aug 7 2009, 11:30 AM']I suggest that you just agree to disagree at this point. You've both made your points and your friend is just showing rigid stubbornness. I once was in a debate with one of my Catholic friends in high school, my best friend actually (apart from Jesus.) It was regarding homosexuality. I gave her all that I could give but she still refused to budge on what she believed. So we just shook hands and agreed to disagree because neither of us was going to change her position.[/quote]

That's all you can do, and you never know - you may actually have made some headway but your friend won't give you the satisfaction of admitting so, or maybe what you've said will sink in later. All you can do is sow good seed, and some folks are mighty rocky ground!