The Consequences Of Once Saved Always Saved

[Katholikos]

Recently, a guy walked into a health club in PA and shot and killed three women he didn't know. The following (excerpt) was reported on Yahoo News this morning (Matone is a spokesman for the killer's (Sodini's) ecclesial community):

QUOTE

Sodini's misery was apparent in his rambling, hate-filled blog, in which he complained of a nonexistent sex life, years of rejection by women and social isolation. Among those he blamed for his perceived troubles were his family and Tetelestai's longtime pastor, Alan "Rick" Knapp, whose teachings he interpreted as assurance he would go to heaven even after committing murder.

"This guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder, then still go to heaven," he wrote.

Knapp, who left town Saturday to care for his critically ill father in Florida, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on Friday that "the message of the word I preach never reflected such a thing."

Matone described Knapp as "really broken this week" and said he has struggled to comprehend Sodini's thinking.

"He just had an authority problem all his life," Matone concludes from Sodini's blog. "Everything and everyone was against him."

Neither Matone nor Knapp recalled ever meeting Sodini at Tetelestai, which is Greek for "It is finished." The church is nondenominational and focuses on Bible study and teaching.

Deacon Jack Rickard had invited Sodini to his home for dinner, but he never sensed his anger.

"I never saw anything out of the ordinary with him. He had his idiosyncrasies, but who doesn't?" Rickard said.

Personally, though, Rickard believes Sodini is in heaven.

"We believe in permanent security — once saved, always saved," Rickard said. "He will be judged, but he will be in heaven. ... He'll be in heaven, but he won't have any rewards because he did evil."

END QUOTE

Whatchathink? Any OSAS believers among us? (I'm an ex -- was raised Southern Baptist.)

Edited August 9, 2009 by Katholikos

[BG45]

An ex, raised American Baptist.

At summer camp we always did small groups, and this was the topic once. "Well you should be ready to meet Hitler in Heaven, because God doesn't let something like killing millions of people stand between you and him after you get Saved!"

[Sojourner]

Ex Presbyterian here. When this topic came up in the circles I ran in, the common cop-out answer was, "Well, they were probably never saved to begin with." Because, of course, how could a person transformed by the Holy Spirit ever do anything as monstrous as this? Clearly they must not have been saved in the first place.

[CatherineM]

If we really believed that, then where the Apostles have been? I mean St. Paul ran around like someone afraid that Jesus was coming tomorrow, and was going to hold him accountable for every soul he didn't save. Why bother with all that stuff and risk martyrdom if he knew he was going to heaven.

[The Bus Station]

[quote name='BG45' post='1944382' date='Aug 9 2009, 04:41 PM']"Well you should be ready to meet Hitler in Heaven, because God doesn't let something like killing millions of people stand between you and him after you get Saved!"[/quote]

I'm sorry, but that is just stupid.

[Selah]

Indeed. Stupid.

[Marie-Therese]

The number one reason I left the Southern Baptist community and came home to Rome.

[CatherineM]

If my dad met Hitler in heaven, I'm sure he decked him.

[Selah]

[quote]"Well you should be ready to meet Hitler in Heaven, because [b]God doesn't let something like killing millions of people stand between you and him after you get Saved[/b]!"[/quote]

I'm still baffled by this

[Hassan]

I'm sorry. The whole line of thinking proposed by the article is just cheep and intellectually lazy.


I don't know where to start.

[Hassan]

[quote name='BG45' post='1944382' date='Aug 9 2009, 04:41 PM']An ex, raised American Baptist.

At summer camp we always did small groups, and this was the topic once. "Well you should be ready to meet Hitler in Heaven, because God doesn't let something like killing millions of people stand between you and him after you get Saved!"[/quote]


Hitler was raised Roman Catholic. So I don't think he would be viewed as saved in the first place.



Is that so different than what you all believe? Couldn't Hitler be in heaven if he genuinely and sincerely repented of his deeds?


Really I don't see how either is just. I know holocaust survivors and really I don't see how even God has a right to forgive Hitler or any of those sadistic monsters for the horrors they inflicted on those poor people. It implies the sins he committed were against God.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Hassan

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1944857' date='Aug 9 2009, 09:36 PM']Hitler was raised Roman Catholic. So I don't think he would be viewed as saved in the first place.



Is that so different than what you all believe? Couldn't Hitler be in heaven if he genuinely and sincerely repented of his deeds?


Really I don't see how either is just. I know holocaust survivors and really I don't see how even God has a right to forgive Hitler or any of those sadistic monsters for the horrors they inflicted on those poor people. It implies the sins he committed were against God.[/quote]

Even Holocaust survivors won't get a automatic pass. The man who pushed for and has done more abortions than just about anyone in Canada is a survivor. I have wondered how man Jewish babies he has killed, and if he ever thinks about how he has become a new Mengele.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='BG45' post='1944382' date='Aug 9 2009, 04:41 PM']An ex, raised American Baptist.

At summer camp we always did small groups, and this was the topic once. "Well you should be ready to meet Hitler in Heaven, because God doesn't let something like killing millions of people stand between you and him after you get Saved!"[/quote]

[b][i][size=6]Oy veh![/size][/i][/b]

[thessalonian]

The problem you run in to with OSAS is that it is an interpretation of scripture that leads to the doctrine. Now Protestants don't believe in infallibility and so you cannot say that you are infallibily certain that you are going to heaven when you die. Even if you are 95% sure your interpretation is correct you still are not 100% certain you are going to heaven unless you believe your interpreation is infallible. The very fact that there are many protestants (not to mention Catholics) that disagree with OSAS who have sincerly studied the scriptures, gives reason to thinkdogma may possibly be wrong.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1944373' date='Aug 9 2009, 05:30 PM']Recently, a guy walked into a health club in PA and shot and killed three women he didn't know. The following (excerpt) was reported on Yahoo News this morning (Matone is a spokesman for the killer's (Sodini's) ecclesial community):

QUOTE

Sodini's misery was apparent in his rambling, hate-filled blog, in which he complained of a nonexistent sex life, years of rejection by women and social isolation. Among those he blamed for his perceived troubles were his family and Tetelestai's longtime pastor, Alan "Rick" Knapp, whose teachings he interpreted as assurance he would go to heaven even after committing murder.

"This guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder, then still go to heaven," he wrote.

Knapp, who left town Saturday to care for his critically ill father in Florida, told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette on Friday that "the message of the word I preach never reflected such a thing."

Matone described Knapp as "really broken this week" and said he has struggled to comprehend Sodini's thinking.

"He just had an authority problem all his life," Matone concludes from Sodini's blog. "Everything and everyone was against him."

Neither Matone nor Knapp recalled ever meeting Sodini at Tetelestai, which is Greek for "It is finished." The church is nondenominational and focuses on Bible study and teaching.

Deacon Jack Rickard had invited Sodini to his home for dinner, but he never sensed his anger.

"I never saw anything out of the ordinary with him. He had his idiosyncrasies, but who doesn't?" Rickard said.

Personally, though, Rickard believes Sodini is in heaven.

"We believe in permanent security — once saved, always saved," Rickard said. "He will be judged, but he will be in heaven. ... He'll be in heaven, but he won't have any rewards because he did evil."

END QUOTE[/quote]

No rewards but in heaven?


[quote name='BG45' post='1944382' date='Aug 9 2009, 05:41 PM']An ex, raised American Baptist.

At summer camp we always did small groups, and this was the topic once. "Well you should be ready to meet Hitler in Heaven, because God doesn't let something like killing millions of people stand between you and him after you get Saved!"[/quote]

Interesting idea. I don't think it's stupid.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1944398' date='Aug 9 2009, 06:02 PM']Ex Presbyterian here. When this topic came up in the circles I ran in, the common cop-out answer was, "Well, they were probably never saved to begin with." Because, of course, how could a person transformed by the Holy Spirit ever do anything as monstrous as this? Clearly they must not have been saved in the first place.[/quote]

Heard that before too. What I wonder is where the line is between monstrous acts unsaved and monstrous acts saved. They point to verses that run along the lines of "you will know by their fruits" but that is ambiguous and everyone sins anyway so where do you draw the line?

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1944497' date='Aug 9 2009, 07:21 PM']If we really believed that, then where the Apostles have been? I mean St. Paul ran around like someone afraid that Jesus was coming tomorrow, and was going to hold him accountable for every soul he didn't save. Why bother with all that stuff and risk martyrdom if he knew he was going to heaven.[/quote]

Bonus points.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1944929' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:50 PM']The problem you run in to with OSAS is that it is an interpretation of scripture that leads to the doctrine. Now Protestants don't believe in infallibility and so you cannot say that you are infallibily certain that you are going to heaven when you die. Even if you are 95% sure your interpretation is correct you still are not 100% certain you are going to heaven unless you believe your interpreation is infallible. The very fact that there are many protestants (not to mention Catholics) that disagree with OSAS who have sincerly studied the scriptures, gives reason to thinkdogma may possibly be wrong.[/quote]

I'll have to remember that.

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[Katholikos]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1944857' date='Aug 9 2009, 10:36 PM']Hitler was raised Roman Catholic. So I don't think he would be viewed as saved in the first place.

Is that so different than what you all believe? Couldn't Hitler be in heaven if he genuinely and sincerely repented of his deeds?

Really I don't see how either is just. I know holocaust survivors and really I don't see how even God has a right to forgive Hitler or any of those sadistic monsters for the horrors they inflicted on those poor people. It implies the sins he committed were against God.[/quote]

Hitler was raised in a Catholic family but rejected the Catholic Church and Christianity in general.

The Catholic Church teaches that every sin has consequences. The sin may be forgiven but the consequences remain until discharged by some action on the penitent's part -- through restitution, restoration, almsgiving, fasting, or some other way. This is called the temporal penalty (punishment) due to sin.

If one dies without having expiated all of the penalties due to one's sins, yet one's sins have been forgiven, the soul undergoes purgation to prepare it for entrance into heaven, where nothing unclean can enter. This purification of the soul after death is called Purgatory by the Church -- from the Latin [i]purgare[/i], to cleanse, to purify.

Nobody skates. If Hitler repented and God forgave him, he'd still have to do time in Purgatory. I would expect that Hitler and a few bad Popes, if they are not in hell, will be in Purgatory until the end of time.

Purgatory is a very logical and consoling doctrine.

Peace, Katholikos

[Hassan]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1944975' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:20 PM']Hitler was raised in a Catholic family but rejected the Catholic Church and Christianity in general.[/quote]


I simply meant that as he was raised Roman Catholic I don't think many Southern Baptists would consider him to have been saved (that is he couldn't fall from grace as he never was in a state of grace). I didn't mean to imply that he was a practicing Roman Catholic. Sorry if I wasn't clear in how I phrased that.

I know about purgatory, but thank you that was a very clear explanation of the doctrine.

Edited August 10, 2009 by Hassan

[Archaeology cat]

ex Southern Baptist here.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1944398' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:02 PM']Ex Presbyterian here. When this topic came up in the circles I ran in, the common cop-out answer was, "Well, they were probably never saved to begin with." Because, of course, how could a person transformed by the Holy Spirit ever do anything as monstrous as this? Clearly they must not have been saved in the first place.[/quote]
Yep, pretty much what I was told, too.

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1944969' date='Aug 10 2009, 05:16 AM']Heard that before too. What I wonder is where the line is between monstrous acts unsaved and monstrous acts saved. They point to verses that run along the lines of "you will know by their fruits" but that is ambiguous and everyone sins anyway so where do you draw the line? [/quote]
I've actually had a OSAS person tell me that if a person is truly saved they will never sin. Of course, that person then clarified that sometimes they'll backslide, but that they can return to God at any time (I wasn't clear if he equated the backsliding with sinning or not). I agree we can always return to God, but that doesn't mean we aren't separated from Him by our sins before we return to Him.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1944978' date='Aug 10 2009, 05:27 AM']I simply meant that as he was raised Roman Catholic I don't think many Southern Baptists would consider him to have been saved (that is he couldn't fall from grace as he never was in a state of grace). I didn't mean to imply that he was a practicing Roman Catholic. Sorry if I wasn't clear in how I phrased that.[/quote]
Good point.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1944398' date='Aug 9 2009, 05:02 PM']Ex Presbyterian here. When this topic came up in the circles I ran in, the common cop-out answer was, "Well, they were probably never saved to begin with." Because, of course, how could a person transformed by the Holy Spirit ever do anything as monstrous as this? Clearly they must not have been saved in the first place.[/quote]

That comeback is sort of self-defeating. If your salvation has been secured eternally by "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior", yet when someone does sin, they weren't saved in the first place, how can it provide the security that it claims to give?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1945514' date='Aug 10 2009, 02:37 PM']That comeback is sort of self-defeating. If your salvation has been secured eternally by "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior", yet when someone does sin, they weren't saved in the first place, how can it provide the security that it claims to give? [/quote]
I agree. The idea, I suppose, is that once you're saved you're always saved, but you can really never know if you are truly saved.