The Consequences Of Once Saved Always Saved

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1944857' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:36 PM']Really I don't see how either is just. I know holocaust survivors and really I don't see how even God has a right to forgive Hitler or any of those sadistic monsters for the horrors they inflicted on those poor people. It implies the sins he committed were against God.[/quote]

Any sin against a person is, by definition, a sin against the image of God. When we cannot insult a person directly to their face, the next best thing is to deface an image of that person.

Hitler certainly showed no signs of repentance at the end of his life, so we have no reason to believe he is in heaven. Regardless, if he is, it is only by the same grace that anyone is in heaven, and somehow God's justice was satisfied. That is primarily through Christ, who was not only an image of God, but God in the flesh.

I could have insulted a person by defacing thousands and even millions of photos, posters, or any kind of artwork I could find bearing their image, but if I confess to the person I've insulted countless times and he personally forgives me in the flesh, justice would be satisfied. The metaphor falls somewhat short because humans are living images of God as opposed to the non-living material image of a photo or artwork, so insulting God by destroying human life is an immensely greater offense. On the other hand, praising God by defending and nurturing human life bestows a far greater blessing.

[BG45]

Yes, I do feel the comment I posted was stupid, it was intended to be a foolish...but true...example of things I've heard. Though as far as American Baptists go in relation to Catholics being saved, I think it's an individual and individual congregation decision. (Just a general reply that sums up most of the quotes of my quote from camp.)

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1945519' date='Aug 10 2009, 02:51 PM']I agree. The idea, I suppose, is that once you're saved you're always saved, but you can really never know if you are truly saved. [/quote]

I don't know about this one. I hang with a lot of Southern Baptists and Pentecostals, and the party line tends to be that because they've accepted Christ as personal Lord and Savior, they know for certain, without any doubt, that they'll go to heaven when they die. Jesus is the heat shield that protects us from the Father's fiery wrath.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1944975' date='Aug 9 2009, 11:20 PM']Nobody skates. If Hitler repented and God forgave him, he'd still have to do time in Purgatory. I would expect that Hitler and a few bad Popes, if they are not in hell, will be in Purgatory until the end of time. [/quote]
If they're in Purgatory though, it means they're already saved. Just that it's a matter of 'time' until they enter heaven. It's not like one stays in purgatory 'forever'.
(and I put emphases on time and forever because I'm not going to even bother thinking about how time applies to an afterlife. )

[Katholikos]

OSAS is possibly the most pernicious doctrine ever devised by man. When did it originate?

QUOTE: Martin Luther: "Let Your Sins Be Strong" (excerpt)

13. . . . It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. [color="#FF0000"]No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day[/color].

Written on the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521 END QUOTE

This concept was refined by John Calvin in his doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints."

This killer's pastor taught OSAS, and he believed it. He expected to die and wake up in heaven after killing three people he didn't even know. His intention was to kill even more. And he thought "That's okay, I've been saved."

There is no limit to the bizarre doctrines a man with a Bible can invent when he rejects the guidance of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

So grateful to be Catholic! Katholikos
former Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist

[Hassan]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1946001' date='Aug 11 2009, 01:22 AM']OSAS is possibly the most pernicious doctrine ever devised by man. When did it originate?

QUOTE: Martin Luther: "Let Your Sins Be Strong" (excerpt)

13. . . . It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. [color="#FF0000"]No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day[/color].

Written on the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521 END QUOTE

This concept was refined by John Calvin in his doctrine of the "Perseverance of the Saints."

This killer's pastor taught OSAS, and he believed it. He expected to die and wake up in heaven after killing three people he didn't even know. His intention was to kill even more. And he thought "That's okay, I've been saved."

There is no limit to the bizarre doctrines a man with a Bible can invent when he rejects the guidance of the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of the world.

So grateful to be Catholic! Katholikos
former Southern Baptist, agnostic, atheist[/quote]

I'm sorry. Drawing a causal line between a theological psincipal and this man's horrid crimes is just absurd. It ignores the numerous obvious and much more relevent factors at work. I assure you that plenty of Catholics have through history managed to justify wicked crimes with their faith.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1945685' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:02 AM']I don't know about this one. I hang with a lot of Southern Baptists and Pentecostals, and the party line tends to be that because they've accepted Christ as personal Lord and Savior, they know for certain, without any doubt, that they'll go to heaven when they die. Jesus is the heat shield that protects us from the Father's fiery wrath. [/quote]
While this is what most Southern Baptists (at least the ones I know) believe, at the same time there is doubt about being saved. If you backslide, people question it. At the end of the Sunday service, during the "altar call", the preacher often makes you doubt whether you're [i]really [/i]saved. So in one instant you're being told that you can have absolute assurance, and in the next being made to doubt whether you have that assurance, and if you don't, that you aren't actually saved. This can all happen in the span of 1 altar call.

[LouisvilleFan]

None of the Baptist churches I attended had altar calls. I think it's seen by many in our generation as a tradition that lost its meaning. They know you can go through the motions of an altar call as much as any other religious action.

[Archaeology cat]

Really? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've attended had altar calls. Every week.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1946089' date='Aug 11 2009, 09:54 AM']Really? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've attended had altar calls. Every week.[/quote]


I attended a Baptist church for two years and there was an altar call every week.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1945514' date='Aug 10 2009, 02:37 PM']That comeback is sort of self-defeating. If your salvation has been secured eternally by "accepting Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior", yet when someone does sin, they weren't saved in the first place, how can it provide the security that it claims to give? [/quote]

Bingo.

And also many times you hear the radio guys telling them that if they don't have this level of faith or their not reading their bibles every day or they aren't going to church then they might not be saved to begin with. Then there are those who aren't sure of their salvation and some say then they aren't really saved and others say they are saved but they haven't put their trust in it. And then there are those who think they are saved that are said to be just decieving themselves. In the end it is just a confused mess.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1946091' date='Aug 11 2009, 10:10 AM']

I attended a Baptist church for two years and there was an altar call every week.[/quote]

Question for ya, where are altar calls without baptisms in the Bible?

[Sojourner]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1946107' date='Aug 11 2009, 11:02 AM']Question for ya, where are altar calls without baptisms in the Bible?[/quote]
Well, in the situation I was part of, altar calls were not reserved solely for people who wanted to be "saved" but for anyone who "felt the pull of the Spirit" or who simply needed prayer. In the case of a new believer, baptism followed soon afterwards, typically in the presence of the entire congregation.

Had I actually joined the church, I would have had to be baptized again, because my infant baptism (as a Presbyterian) was not a "believer's baptism" and so was not effectual.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1946137' date='Aug 11 2009, 05:09 PM']Well, in the situation I was part of, altar calls were not reserved solely for people who wanted to be "saved" but for anyone who "felt the pull of the Spirit" or who simply needed prayer. In the case of a new believer, baptism followed soon afterwards, typically in the presence of the entire congregation.

Had I actually joined the church, I would have had to be baptized again, because my infant baptism (as a Presbyterian) was not a "believer's baptism" and so was not effectual.[/quote]
That's how it was where I was, too. The person had to have been immersed in a "believer's baptism" for to "count".

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1946089' date='Aug 11 2009, 10:54 AM']Really? I'm pretty sure all the ones I've attended had altar calls. Every week.[/quote]

The "emerging" type of Baptist/Vineyard/non-denominational churches (there isn't a whole lot of difference in most cases aside from just being affiliated) aren't much into altar calls. That's old school Baptist. Instead, we had weekly Communion, recited the Apostle's Creed, and responsorial Psalms. Those commandments against drinking and dancing are also out the window. My Baptist friends arguably drink and dance more than many of my Catholic friends, who can be downright puritanical. Being in a culturally Catholic region may have some influence because most of these Baptists were raised Catholic. I can't speak for young adult Baptists in the Carolinas or Alabama... wouldn't be surprised if they are a little more open about some things that their parents abhorred.

That said, within the spectrum of Protestantism, their theology is very much on the orthodox end.

Edited August 11, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1946176' date='Aug 11 2009, 05:53 PM']The "emerging" type of Baptist/Vineyard/non-denominational churches (there isn't a whole lot of difference in most cases aside from just being affiliated) aren't much into altar calls. That's old school Baptist. Instead, we had weekly Communion, recited the Apostle's Creed, and responsorial Psalms. Those commandments against drinking and dancing are also out the window. My Baptist friends arguably drink and dance more than many of my Catholic friends, who can be downright puritanical. Being in a culturally Catholic region may have some influence because most of these Baptists were raised Catholic. I can't speak for young adult Baptists in the Carolinas or Alabama... wouldn't be surprised if they are a little more open about some things that their parents abhorred.

That said, within the spectrum of Protestantism, their theology is very much on the orthodox end.[/quote]
Wow. I can remember an occasional responsorial Psalm, but Communion was quarterly. Still is at that congregation. And I'd be surprised if they didn't still have altar calls there, though the pastor is my age. I can't see the older people in the church allowing such a change.

[BG45]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1946137' date='Aug 11 2009, 12:09 PM']Well, in the situation I was part of, altar calls were not reserved solely for people who wanted to be "saved" but for anyone who "felt the pull of the Spirit" or who simply needed prayer. In the case of a new believer, baptism followed soon afterwards, typically in the presence of the entire congregation.[/quote]

Ditto for the most part, my Baptism was delayed by [b]months[/b] because they decided to go to one baptism ceremony each financial quarter.

As they got more involved in the Emergent Church movement, they've cut Communion down to a handful of times a year in the Contemporary Service under the arguments that "familiarity breeds contempt" and "new people don't know what it means" and "It's not really needed."

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1946091' date='Aug 11 2009, 10:10 AM']

I attended a Baptist church for two years and there was an altar call every week.[/quote]

Yeah, I agree that it's pretty old-school, though. Our Baptist church didn't have an altar call in the whole time we were there (like 12 years...)

[Katholikos]

There are more than 250 different kinds of Baptists -- not counting the Independent Baptists, and growing -- all with different beliefs and practices. One belief is constant among Baptists: baptism of believers only, by immersion only. Southern Baptists are OSAS believers. There is an altar call at the conclusion of every Sunday service.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Katholikos

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1946199' date='Aug 11 2009, 02:36 PM']Wow. I can remember an occasional responsorial Psalm, but Communion was quarterly. Still is at that congregation. And I'd be surprised if they didn't still have altar calls there, though the pastor is my age. I can't see the older people in the church allowing such a change. [/quote]

Nope. It comes from newer congregations that attract younger believers by being relevant to their lives, challenging people to live out their Baptismal call faithfully, and recovering the spirit and practice of Christian traditions.

Sound anything like the religious orders that are growing today?

Edited August 11, 2009 by LouisvilleFan