Hassan Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947039' date='Aug 12 2009, 12:52 PM'][url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=97486"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=97486[/url][/quote] Not even close. The bill KoC. Cite me something from the bill which you can support your absurd claim with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 Be very, very careful with "advance care planning". Please. My dad does parish work as a visitor to the sick and elderly and has run into end-of-life care plans several times. And every single time the person involved finds out that they can actually deal with much more than they ever thought they could, and decide not to go on with the plan. That's not a problem if they can still communicate with some ease, but if they can't, doctors and the family can be tempted to go with an act of will that might not be accurate anymore. That doesn't have to be about money at all. 99% of the time they would honestly think they're doing what gran wants. Ask any woman who has been in childbirth: the human body and mind are amazing, and there's no way to imagine up front what you can actually deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1947049' date='Aug 12 2009, 01:03 PM']Be very, very careful with "advance care planning". Please. My dad does parish work as a visitor to the sick and elderly and has run into end-of-life care plans several times. And every single time the person involved finds out that they can actually deal with much more than they ever thought they could, and decide not to go on with the plan. That's not a problem if they can still communicate with some ease, but if they can't, doctors and the family can be tempted to go with an act of will that might not be accurate anymore. That doesn't have to be about money at all. 99% of the time they would honestly think they're doing what gran wants. Ask any woman who has been in childbirth: the human body and mind are amazing, and there's no way to imagine up front what you can actually deal with.[/quote] In America euthanasia is illegal. End of life consultation is things like creating a living will, deciding if one wishes to be kept alive by extraordionary means et cetera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1947047' date='Aug 12 2009, 02:00 PM']Not even close. The bill KoC. Cite me something from the bill which you can support your absurd claim with.[/quote] Guess you didn't read the article. Which does 'cite' the bill. But hey if you don't have time that's fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hassan Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947056' date='Aug 12 2009, 01:08 PM']Guess you didn't read the article. Which does 'cite' the bill. But hey if you don't have time that's fine.[/quote] The only citation I saw was [i]The section, on page 425 of the bill, offers to pay once every five years for a voluntary, not mandatory, consultation with a doctor, who will not blatantly tell the patient how to end his or her life sooner, but will explain to the patient the set of options available at the end of life, including living wills, palliative care and hospice, life sustaining treatment, and all aspects of advance care planning, including, presumably, the decision to end one’s life [/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XIX Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1947072' date='Aug 12 2009, 03:38 PM']The only citation I saw was [i]The section, on page 425 of the bill, offers to pay once every five years for a voluntary, not mandatory, consultation with a doctor, who will not blatantly tell the patient how to end his or her life sooner, but will explain to the patient the set of options available at the end of life, including living wills, palliative care and hospice, life sustaining treatment, and all aspects of advance care planning, including, presumably, the decision to end one’s life [/i][/quote] If that's the only citation, then that makes it nigh well impossible for e to take this article seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) And that citation itself as point out in the article is a problem. But HR 3200 is not the only Health Bill floating through Congress, it is as far as I'm aware the only one we have access to read. The words and statements of the President that seem to support dening healthcare to people which could end their lives early, because of cost-effectiveness is also important. This is also the point of the article I posted. Point is this is not all about the one HR 3200 bill, but at least 8 from what I understand and the statements of the supporters of those bills or similar ones. Edited August 12, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eagle_eye222001 Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1946994' date='Aug 12 2009, 12:45 PM']The source of this article comes from a Far-left wing group.[/quote] I'm sure they were unbiased in planning it. [quote name='Era Might' post='1947010' date='Aug 12 2009, 01:20 PM']How does "end of life consultation" differ from any other kind of consultation? If someone has a question, they can ask their doctor. I don't see why the government has to discuss "end of life consultation" in a legislative bill.[/quote] Don't you remember that this health care thing is going to make money? Make money......right.. ---------------- Now playing: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/hans+zimmer+%26+james+newton+howard/track/im+not+a+hero+(album+version)"]Hans Zimmer & James Newton Howard - I'm Not A Hero (Album Version)[/url] via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url] Edited August 12, 2009 by eagle_eye222001 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 12, 2009 Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1947049' date='Aug 12 2009, 12:03 PM']Be very, very careful with "advance care planning". Please. My dad does parish work as a visitor to the sick and elderly and has run into end-of-life care plans several times. And every single time the person involved finds out that they can actually deal with much more than they ever thought they could, and decide not to go on with the plan. That's not a problem if they can still communicate with some ease, but if they can't, doctors and the family can be tempted to go with an act of will that might not be accurate anymore. That doesn't have to be about money at all. 99% of the time they would honestly think they're doing what gran wants. Ask any woman who has been in childbirth: the human body and mind are amazing, and there's no way to imagine up front what you can actually deal with.[/quote] That's kind of the point. One should keep things up to date so that there are no questions about what should be done. Note that this is a VOLUNTARY consultation. The only thing the bill stipulates is that Physicians should be paid for them, IF the patient wants them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1947051' date='Aug 12 2009, 09:05 PM']In America euthanasia is illegal. End of life consultation is things like creating a living will, deciding if one wishes to be kept alive by extraordionary means et cetera.[/quote] [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947263' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:00 AM']That's kind of the point. One should keep things up to date so that there are no questions about what should be done. Note that this is a VOLUNTARY consultation. The only thing the bill stipulates is that Physicians should be paid for them, IF the patient wants them.[/quote] Oh, my, that's a comfort, seriously. These things freak me out so much. I seriously can't wrap my head around my society sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 12, 2009 Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1947271' date='Aug 12 2009, 03:17 PM']Oh, my, that's a comfort, seriously. These things freak me out so much. I seriously can't wrap my head around my society sometimes.[/quote] I understand. But that's the kind of fear they're trying to stir up. I definitely agree to the horridness of what they are claiming. But the fact of the matter is, that's not what's going on, and they very beaver dam well know it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeniteAdoremus Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947278' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:30 AM']I understand. But that's the kind of fear they're trying to stir up. I definitely agree to the horridness of what they are claiming. But the fact of the matter is, that's not what's going on, and they very beaver dam well know it.[/quote] I'm sorry that I didn't research well before my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesus_lol Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 (edited) (edit: to fidei) exactly. A fact is a fact, no matter who says it. in this case the far right were caught twisting something and fabricating junk for fear mongering. next week it will be the far left with something else. the point is, in this case, there is nothing in that bill to be concerned about. yes, if you want to wildly extrapolate and plain make up junk so that it fits some idea you have about the person/group in question, then yes,some horrid things can be thought up. pretending that the "what if?" game is real has some serious consequences, and people end up uninformed or with deliberately malicious information. to put it another way, these people are lying to you so that you will go along with their wishes. it doesnt matter what those wishes are, they shouldnt have to do that if their ideas make a shred of sense. i really dont want to derail this discussion, but this is the sort of thing the govt. was refering to about reporting lies/misinfo on healthcare. there already is a thread on the subject though, so if that discussion gets continued, make it in that thread please, thanks. Edited August 12, 2009 by Jesus_lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 12, 2009 Author Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1947282' date='Aug 12 2009, 03:43 PM'] I'm sorry that I didn't research well before my post. [/quote] It's okay [quote name='Jesus_lol' post='1947285' date='Aug 12 2009, 03:46 PM'](edit: to fidei) exactly. A fact is a fact, no matter who says it. in this case the far right were caught twisting something and fabricating junk for fear mongering. next week it will be the far left with something else. the point is, in this case, there is nothing in that bill to be concerned about. yes, if you want to wildly extrapolate and plain make up junk so that it fits some idea you have about the person/group in question, then yes,some horrid things can be thought up. pretending that the "what if?" game is real has some serious consequences, and people end up uninformed or with deliberately malicious information. to put it another way, these people are lying to you so that you will go along with their wishes. it doesnt matter what those wishes are, they shouldnt have to do that if their ideas make a shred of sense. i really dont want to derail this discussion, but this is the sort of thing the govt. was refering to about reporting lies/misinfo on healthcare. there already is a thread on the subject though, so if that discussion gets continued, make it in that thread please, thanks.[/quote] EXTRAPOLATE! That's the word I've been trying to think of! Excellent points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted August 12, 2009 Share Posted August 12, 2009 [quote name='Hassan' post='1947007' date='Aug 12 2009, 01:17 PM']The government doesn't give any advice.[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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