Stephen Hawking Enters U.s. Health Care Debate

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1947683' date='Aug 12 2009, 10:38 PM']Yes, a professor like Hawking would never have private insurance either on his own or through his university. Without the NHS, he would be dead. Even smart people can make dumb statements.[/quote]

Steven Hawking was not a professor when his condition was discovered. In fact I believe he had just finished his undergrad studies.

[quote]Maybe the point of the editorial is to say people in a condition like Hawkings would not receive the same care as Hawkings. Yes, everyone is equal; it's just that some are more equal than others.[/quote]


I don't think this point needs to be adressed as it was predicated on a false assumption.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1947690' date='Aug 12 2009, 09:43 PM']People don't die in the UK. The healthcare there is THAT AMAZING![/quote]
We should all move there.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1947690' date='Aug 12 2009, 10:43 PM']People don't die in the UK. The healthcare there is THAT AMAZING![/quote]


The do have longer life expectancy.

People also eventually die in Afghanistan. Let's adopt their health care system.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1947692' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:45 PM']Steven Hawking was not a professor when his condition was discovered. In fact I believe he had just finished his undergrad studies.[/quote]
By the time the illness' symptoms became serious, he was employed.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1947697' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:51 PM']By the time the illness' symptoms became serious, he was employed.[/quote]


Nope. Also incorrect. Unless you mean whatever nominal job he may have held while working on his PhD and still undistinguished

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1947699' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:54 PM']Nope. Also incorrect. Unless you mean whatever nominal job he may have held while working on his PhD and still undistinguished[/quote]
Even nominal jobs come with health insurance.

UK's life expectancy is 78.7 and the U.S., with all its tremendous flaws, so horrible as to require intersession by the federal government, is 78.06. I think our rate is pretty good considering how we eat. A UK system with our eating and lack of exercise habits, our life expectancy might be 68.

Everyone would like to see improvements. The debate is what kind of reform will work best.

[Hassan]

I like reading your posts so I don't mean to sound like a jerk. However, I find it somewhat ammusing that you are insisting that you have greater perspective than the man himself with regards to what means he had avaliable to him and the central role the UK public health care system played in his survival.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1947707' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:01 PM']Even nominal jobs come with health insurance.

UK's life expectancy is 78.7 and the U.S., with all its tremendous flaws, so horrible as to require intersession by the federal government, is 78.06. I think our rate is pretty good considering how we eat. A UK system with our eating and lack of exercise habits, our life expectancy might be 68.

Everyone would like to see improvements. The debate is what kind of reform will work best.[/quote]


Please.

Your point was based on your assumption that his role as a distinguished Professor played a role in the quality of care he recieved.
[i]
Maybe the point of the editorial is to say people in a condition like Hawkings would not receive the same care as Hawkings. Yes, everyone is equal; it's just that some are more equal than others. [/i]

He was not distinguished at the time. If he had any sort of job, a big if, it was at best nominal. I've held a number of nominal student jobs, I promise you they don't have good health care plans. You have absolutly no basis in evidence for your claims about what level of health care he had access to absen the state system.

He has a very good basis for his claims. And he seems to feel you are simply wrong.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1947711' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:06 AM']Please.

Your point was based on your assumption that his role as a distinguished Professor played a role in the quality of care he recieved.
[i]
Maybe the point of the editorial is to say people in a condition like Hawkings would not receive the same care as Hawkings. Yes, everyone is equal; it's just that some are more equal than others. [/i]

He was not distinguished at the time. If he had any sort of job, a big if, it was at best nominal. I've held a number of nominal student jobs, I promise you they don't have good health care plans. You have absolutly no basis in evidence for your claims about what level of health care he had access to absen the state system.

He has a very good basis for his claims. And he seems to feel you are simply wrong.[/quote]
I had two points. Don't mix the points. The primary and most salient point is he would have been insured, private or medicaid. The secondary point was that a super majority of the time he has suffered significant symptoms, he was distinguished.

[Jesus_lol]

i like how people attacking the medicare in the uk and canada, seem to think it will result in a lot of disadvantaged people dying. isnt that the exact problem in the US? if you are poor or have the "wrong" healthcare then you are up poo creek?

weird. then when a plan comes up to get healthcare for everyone including the disadvantaged and, everyone kneejerks at it cause it will raise their precious taxes? and how much are those of you with medical insurance paying for that?

and its slow? sure emerg. rooms can be, but when you actually need something, you would be surprised how fast things happen. my mum has a minor heart attack, ambulance is there immediately, and airlifted 30miles across the stretch of ocean to the nearest hospital and helped. soon after exploratory imaging and surgery and she is all fixed up. we didnt have to shell out any money for that besides the taxes. which arent that bad really. if yo make 20grand a year or less you dont pay for it at all, and there is a sliding scale up to about 25 grand per year until its full price. which when i last checked was 2 grand a year.

[Hassan]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1947722' date='Aug 13 2009, 12:13 AM']I had two points.[/quote]

Yes you did. Your initial ones anyway, you continue to morph them as the facts continually fail to meet your claims. And here they are.

[i]Yes, a professor like Hawking would never have private insurance either on his own or through his university. Without the NHS, he would be dead. Even smart people can make dumb statements.

Maybe the point of the editorial is to say people in a condition like Hawkings would not receive the same care as Hawkings. Yes, everyone is equal; it's just that some are more equal than others. [/i]

[quote]The primary and most salient point is he would have been insured, private or medicaid.[/quote]

The UK doesn't have Medicaid, that is an American program (nor does the point help you). You have no idea what access he had to private insurance. He seems to think that without the government system he'd have been up the creek without a paddle, but I'm sure you, with your intimate knowledge of his private life during the late 50's/early 60's, know better

[quote]The secondary point was that a super majority of the time he has suffered significant symptoms, he was distinguished.[/quote]

So?

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1947692' date='Aug 13 2009, 06:45 AM']Steven Hawking was not a professor when his condition was discovered. In fact I believe he had just finished his undergrad studies.[/quote]




[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947693' date='Aug 13 2009, 06:45 AM']We should all move there.[/quote]



[quote name='Hassan' post='1947699' date='Aug 13 2009, 06:54 AM']Nope. Also incorrect. Unless you mean whatever nominal job he may have held while working on his PhD and still undistinguished[/quote]



He only finished his PhD after his disease had stabilised, and that was completely unexpected. Back then they fully expected he'd be dead within three years. After that he was a research fellow, which is OK, but hardly distinguished. He probably wouldn't even be accepted for insurance.

What was the point of this again? That he [i]might[/i] have been able to pay his own way through (which I think he most certainly didn't) doesn't say anything about those ALS patients that happen to NOT be the greatest mind currently living on our planet.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1947707' date='Aug 12 2009, 11:01 PM']Even nominal jobs come with health insurance.

UK's life expectancy is 78.7 and the U.S., with all its tremendous flaws, so horrible as to require intersession by the federal government, is 78.06. I think our rate is pretty good considering how we eat. A UK system with our eating and lack of exercise habits, our life expectancy might be 68.

Everyone would like to see improvements. The debate is what kind of reform will work best.[/quote]

Have you ever actually lived in the UK? I wouldn't say the UK has that much better exercise and eating habits compared to the U.S. Sometimes people take the bus and walk to get around a bit more, but I think their diets are horrible. Fish and chips? Scotch eggs? Breakfasts of bacon, eggs, sausage? Meat pies? Or a lot of indian food (very popular here) -- deep fried samosas? Tikka Masala? A lot of the junk I see in their grocery stores, especially their frozen food section is just as bad as American food, sometimes even worse. I find many British are heavy drinkers as well, they have a "pub culture" that very much influences this. In my experience, I have found Americans to actually be a bit more health conscious -- maybe that's a regional thing, though. I grew up in the pacific northwest where people eat fish, rather than fried southern fare, and we were all hikers and fitness freaks.

I do find that private care I got in the U.S. employed under someone else was a little better than what I get here in the UK, though generally healthcare on the NHS has fulfilled my needs. But if you're self-employed in the U.S. or laid off, you're screwed until you get a job or buy out your own insurance. And that really doesn't work very well. A lot of people I know that are self-employed go off health insurance because they can't afford it. You can purchase catastrophic insurance in case you break a leg or have something that is above a $1,000 deductible -- but if you have regular medical problems like paying for medications or just getting regular doctor's office visits, you pay for that yourself. And honestly as a self-employed I have had a better time financially on the NHS than what I did back home.

Now, to be fair, I will also say that I don't doubt that the NHS pushed Stephen Hawking's referrals through at least a little bit quicker because he's Stephen freaking Hawking. And I don't think an NHS style system could work in practice in a country the size of the U.S. but it's not like the NHS is some freakshow that doesn't hold a candle to American healthcare. And as far as the eating and dietary habits of Americans and British are concerned, I find it questionable that either really can win the "we're the healthiest!" contest.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Ash Wednesday

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1947990' date='Aug 13 2009, 04:44 PM']Have you ever actually lived in the UK? I wouldn't say the UK has that much better exercise and eating habits compared to the U.S. Sometimes people take the bus and walk to get around a bit more, but I think their diets are horrible. Fish and chips? Scotch eggs? Breakfasts of bacon, eggs, sausage? Meat pies? Or a lot of indian food (very popular here) -- deep fried samosas? Tikka Masala? A lot of the junk I see in their grocery stores, especially their frozen food section is just as bad as American food, sometimes even worse. I find many British are heavy drinkers as well, they have a "pub culture" that very much influences this. In my experience, I have found Americans to actually be a bit more health conscious -- maybe that's a regional thing, though. I grew up in the pacific northwest where people eat fish, rather than fried southern fare, and we were all hikers and fitness freaks.

I do find that private care I got in the U.S. employed under someone else was a little better than what I get here in the UK, though generally healthcare on the NHS has fulfilled my needs. But if you're self-employed in the U.S. or laid off, you're screwed until you get a job or buy out your own insurance. And that really doesn't work very well. A lot of people I know that are self-employed go off health insurance because they can't afford it. You can purchase catastrophic insurance in case you break a leg or have something that is above a $1,000 deductible -- but if you have regular medical problems like paying for medications or just getting regular doctor's office visits, you pay for that yourself. And honestly as a self-employed I have had a better time financially on the NHS than what I did back home.

Now, to be fair, I will also say that I don't doubt that the NHS pushed Stephen Hawking's referrals through at least[i] a little bit [/i]quicker because he's Stephen freaking Hawking. And I don't think an NHS style system could work in practice in a country the size of the U.S. but it's not like the NHS is some freakshow that doesn't hold a candle to American healthcare. And as far as the eating and dietary habits of Americans and British are concerned, I find it questionable that either really can win the "we're the healthiest!" contest.[/quote]
The only different thing I'd post is that I didn't really notice much difference in care between my private insurance in the US and the NHS. Though I've heard that even with insurance it can be rather expensive to give birth in the US. As with all things, there are regional differences, too.

As for food, I definitely gained weight when I studied in Lincolnshire. Clotted cream, full-fat everything, a full English breakfast. My host family fed me quite well. Ooh, and Thornton's - it's my weakness. Now, my father is from the South, so he grew up with all the fried chicken, and when he makes me breakfast, it's definitely more than an English breakfast.

[Ash Wednesday]

Seriously, they eat chips (as in thick cut french fries) with everything!

Yeah, the clinic I was at in East London as a student was kind of seedy, but that was a dodgy area in general. The local clinic where I am in Buckinghamshire is probably more comparable to the ones back home.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Ash Wednesday