Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947389' date='Aug 12 2009, 06:07 PM']Your charge that these people are lying can't be proved unless we can read their minds, or unless they have stated two competently contradictory things. To lie, to truly lie one must know the truth and purposely state a falsehood. You can state what they are saying is false but to state they are lying without proof, or a mind reader is an attack on their character.[/quote] You'd do well to remember that definition you just gave me, because quite often, the "liar" card is pulled on many things. And if you truly believe what you just said, you've got quite a few statements to retract about Obama and liberals Edited August 13, 2009 by fidei defensor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947391' date='Aug 12 2009, 07:07 PM']You'd do well to remember that definition you just gave me, because quite often, the "liar" card is pulled on many things. And if you truly believe what you just said, you've got quite a few statements to retract about Obama and liberals [/quote] As I amended my statement as you responded. When I have called Obama a liar it is because there is actual proof, such as two completely contradictory statements. Would you mind showing where your proof is that theses folks are lying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947394' date='Aug 12 2009, 06:10 PM']As I amended my statement as you responded. When I have called Obama a liar it is because there is actual proof, such as two completely contradictory statements. Would you mind showing where your proof is that theses folks are lying?[/quote] I consider it lying when they are continually told that there is nothing in any of the bill that talks about death panels or euthanasia yet they continually claim these things exist in the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947397' date='Aug 12 2009, 07:12 PM']I consider it lying when they are continually told that there is nothing in any of the bill that talks about death panels or euthanasia yet they continually claim these things exist in the bill.[/quote] Because someone is continually told something that may or may not be and they disagree does not make them liars. Edited August 13, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947401' date='Aug 12 2009, 06:15 PM']Because someone is continually told something that may or may not be and they disagree does not make them liars.[/quote] It makes them liars when what they are told is true and they continue to spread the falsehoods. There is nothing in the bill explicitly or even remotely like death panels or favoring euthanasia. It makes them liars when this has been brought to their attention and yet they insist on continuing to claim the bill has these things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='BG45' post='1947379' date='Aug 12 2009, 07:57 PM']If you could cite some examples, that would be good. As best as my personal abilities have been able to tell, neither side is pleasant and angelic in their rhetoric, nor their violence in the past to almost present age. Which is most unfortunate.[/quote] Kenneth Gladney, 38, a black conservative attacked [url="http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/laworder/story/0470FEB3219207458625760B001142AC?OpenDocument"]http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stor...AC?OpenDocument[/url] [url="http://michellemalkin.com/2009/08/06/seiu-and-the-persuasion-of-power/"]http://michellemalkin.com/2009/08/06/seiu-...asion-of-power/[/url] There are two other cases I know about one happened inside the building between a doorway what was thought to be "union members" push a man up against the wall and ruffed him up. Another minor case was a liberal woman slapping a conservative man in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947403' date='Aug 12 2009, 08:19 PM']It makes them liars when what they are told is true and they continue to spread the falsehoods. There is nothing in the bill explicitly or even remotely like death panels or favoring euthanasia. It makes them liars when this has been brought to their attention and yet they insist on continuing to claim the bill has these things.[/quote] Again they have to believe it is the truth, and purposely state something they know to be false for them to be liars. You can not know that without more proof which you do not have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947412' date='Aug 12 2009, 06:28 PM']Again they have to believe it is the truth, and purposely state something they know to be false for them to be liars. You can not know that without more proof which you do not have.[/quote] That's a cheap out. From now on, I'll just elect to not believe certain things. That way, I can call you a maniac and not be a liar! I don't believe you're not a maniac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947417' date='Aug 12 2009, 07:32 PM']That's a cheap out. From now on, I'll just elect to not believe certain things. That way, I can call you a maniac and not be a liar! I don't believe you're not a maniac.[/quote] Sorry you don't like it but to be a liar requires the person to know the truth and purposely state a falsehood. And I didn't think you where calling people names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947422' date='Aug 12 2009, 06:39 PM']Sorry you don't like it but to be a liar requires the person to know the truth and purposely state a falsehood. And I didn't think you where calling people names.[/quote] I accept that. However, it comes down to trust. You trust they are ignorant of their falsehoods, and I don't. I don't believe its possible for any intelligent person to actually believe those falsehoods unless they live under a rock or purposely choose to believe them. Either way, your trust is much greater than mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1947423' date='Aug 12 2009, 07:41 PM']I accept that. However, it comes down to trust. You trust they are ignorant of their falsehoods, and I don't. I don't believe its possible for any intelligent person to actually believe those falsehoods unless they live under a rock or purposely choose to believe them. Either way, your trust is much greater than mine.[/quote] That's probably the best I could hope from you. Thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1947424' date='Aug 12 2009, 06:42 PM']That's probably the best I could hope from you. Thank you [/quote] See, I knew we weren't that unreasonable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marie-Therese Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 1. People on both sides of this issue have sullied their positions with physical attacks and inflammatory rhetoric. If you want to be taken seriously, don't slap people. Common sense. 2. If you believe anything that either party in this country has to say to be truthful, then you are probably deluded. 3. Fidei, I feel fairly confident in assessing your political stance in regards to this issue. I have to tell you that as a registered nurse working within the health care system, it is neither paranoid nor irrational for people to read between the lines, so to speak, when it comes to potential outcomes of a possible government-operated health plan. Have you ever been to a doctor? Have you ever had a test denied or been told that you couldn't obtain some particular care because of insurance restrictions? Bear in mind that current health insurance systems are still profit-oriented vehicles. Now, introduce governmental control into the mix...it is not paranoid for people to predict that rationing would eventually occur. Go to a nursing home right now and see what kind of care the elderly in this country get, then imagine what happens when that care gets rationed. If you think euthanasia is not a potential outcome in that situation, then you are refusing to look at facts. Just because the word isn't enumerated in a piece of legislation doesn't mean it isn't there. 4. I was under the impression that our President was in favor of community organizers...but apparently that is only if they are groups he agrees with. 5. I personally am offended at the premise that if you go to a public forum and express yourself, even if the discourse is heated (as long as it doesn't degrade into name-calling), that somehow you are just a political hack or some fringe right-wing lunatic. A large segment of the population which does not affiliate with either party feels strongly about this topic. Disagreeing with the administration doesn't make you a traitor or an imbecile, either. During President Bush's last term, many were very fond of making this point over and over. How come it no longer applies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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