One Mediator- Jesus, Why All The Hype About Mary?

[Thomist-in-Training]

One more thing that I forgot, another thing of St. Louis Marie de Montfort's.

"Mary is a traitress." She doesn't keep anything for herself. If you praise her, she immediately turns around and praises God, just as she did at the Visitation to Elizabeth: "What am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me? Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!" She replies "My soul magnifies the Lord." This is a mystery just as "Mother of God" is a mystery: how can a human being make God greater? I don't know, but it is true and that is her whole function: to magnify the Lord for His greatest possible glory.

She is truly human to the fullest extent and possesses all the virtues, so that any good thing you can think of to say of her is true except that which belongs only to God. A certain saint--I really wish I could remember and have tried to find it on Google--had a vision of her and said that if he didn't already know, he would have thought she was a goddess. So unless you do that, it is impossible to pay her too much respect.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='t1kuslik' date='16 August 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1250450167' post='1950561']
Thank you all for your posts. You are appreciated. Let's together get to the bottom of this issue![/quote]

It's about time... 500 years of Reformation are about to end right here in this thread

[quote name='t1kuslik' date='16 August 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1250450167' post='1950561']
It definitely helped clarify the Catholic position. I see how Mary can be called the Mother of God in that she was the mother of Jesus who was God. Makes sense.[/quote]

And to take that one step further, the purpose of this doctrine (that Mary is the Mother of God) is to affirm the Incarnation and the dual nature of Christ as both human and divine. The theme with all Marian doctrines and devotions is answering the question, how is Mary the living model of a Christ-centered life?

[quote name='t1kuslik' date='16 August 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1250450167' post='1950561']
And I definitely agree that people can intercede in the sense of offering up prayers, talking to God, etc. For example, Moses in the book of Exodus interceded between the Israelites and God I.e. Commandments, Instructions on building the tabernacle, asking God to not destroy them after worshipping the Golden Calf, etc. I also agree that you can ask friends and family to pray for you and if they are Christian and they ask according to God's will He will answer. All of these I am fine with.[/quote]

Good... that makes you right

[quote name='t1kuslik' date='16 August 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1250450167' post='1950561']
I guess the problem I have is the fine line of asking for help and treating Mary as an idol. Luke 4:8 tells us "Worship the LORD your God and serve Him only". When I see pictures of Mary typically she is shown with light radiating from her, a magnificent crown, the Holiest of Holies, etc. Now even in Jesus' time He did not say "bow down and worship My mom". He said, "I am the way, I am the truth...Me, Me, Me" All arrows point to Jesus, always. No if's and's or but's. So my question is why turn those arrows to point to Mary? Why not kneel at the throne of Jesus and stay there? Why let all of this logic come in and say "Well, this is a family after all, today I am going to focus on Mary cuz she is the mother of God"? [/quote]

I agree with you that this is the heart of the matter, and what you're talking about here seems to basically be the "hump" that Protestants struggle to get over, even those who (like me while checking out Catholicism) are able to accept Catholic doctrine intellectually while their hearts and guts are sounding off alarms that something doesn't feel right.

First thing to think about is the "both/and" approach versus the "either/or" approach. You're probably familiar with debating faith or works, and obviously James says that we are saved through both faith [i]and[/i] works (not that his words stop us today from debating it... feel free to start a new thread if you wish... ). With a lot of trademark Catholic-Protestant disagreements, like devotiong to Mary versus Christ, the answer for a Catholic lies in accepting both and finding that the both/and answer makes each "side" stronger. Thus, true devotion to Mary not only strengthens one's devotion to Christ, but it [i]is[/i] devotion to Christ. Consider, if you wish to model your life after the life of Jesus, what was the first action of Jesus in coming to earth at the Incarnation?

You might say he prayed a novena to Mary: nine months in perfect physical communion with his human mother. For 18 days, they even shared the same beating heart. There can be no doubt, Jesus cherished a unique and unbreakable bond with his mother, so if you want to be closer to Christ, would there be a better place to begin than getting to know his mother?

If there is any doubt that devotion to Mary won't lead you to Christ, keep in mind her final testimony in Scripture at the Wedding at Cana, "Do whatever he tells you." These are her last spoken words in Scripture. She lives by a prayerful example, as the Church is commanded to do, so that we remain literally at the throne of Jesus. After all, we believe he resides in every tabernacle in every Church in the world. We only have statues of Mary in the Church to symbolize her spiritual presence: Jesus is both spiritually and physically present.

[quote name='t1kuslik' date='16 August 2009 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1250450167' post='1950561']
Another example, the Word tells us that we are the temple of God (1 Cor 3:16). God's Spirit resides in us. Yet, over and over again the Word tells us to look to the Spirit, not focus so much on the vessel. God's Spirit is in us but we don't create pictures with light radiating from the body. "...until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return" (Gen 3:19). Wouldn't you all agree that worshipping the human body would be considered idolatry?[/quote]

Yes... keep in mind that Catholicism is a complete "whole," so every doctrine fits like a puzzle piece among all the other doctrines: thus, the Assumption of Mary body and soul into Heaven fits with believing she is the Mother of God. Her human body, like Elijah's, did not return to dust, but was received by Christ into Heaven. As Christ's chosen vessel, she could not be allowed to suffer the burden of sin. Thus, not only is she the living model of the glorified Church in Heaven, but on a more practical level, she shows us how to be vessels for Christ, even as sinners in this fallen world. The light radiating from Mary is the same light that radiates from all redeemed people: Christ, who is the only source of true light (as opposed to the deceiving "angel of light").

Hope that is helpful... in being Catholic, everything needs to be centered around Christ, most especially Mary and the saints.

Edited August 21, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[thessalonian]

Where's todd?

[thessalonian]

I will answer about the justification issue. I think that one can have errant views regarding doctrine and be in ignorance, and yet the spirit can move them that they may do what God requires. Thus when Jesus says to the sheep "when I was naked you clothed ME, when I was hungry you fed ME....etc.". They said WHEN did we ..... They did not know that they had done the good that is required of us through the spirit working in and through us (eph 3:20-21). But sin, serious sin blinds one to true love of neighbor. So I stand by what I have said.

[Jordanus]

[quote name='t1kuslik' date='16 August 2009 - 12:16 PM' timestamp='1250450167' post='1950561']I guess the problem I have is the fine line of asking for help and treating Mary as an idol. Luke 4:8 tells us "Worship the LORD your God and serve Him only". When I see pictures of Mary typically she is shown with light radiating from her, a magnificent crown, the Holiest of Holies, etc. Now even in Jesus' time He did not say "bow down and worship My mom". He said, "I am the way, I am the truth...Me, Me, Me" All arrows point to Jesus, always. No if's and's or but's. So my question is why turn those arrows to point to Mary? Why not kneel at the throne of Jesus and stay there? Why let all of this logic come in and say "Well, this is a family after all, today I am going to focus on Mary cuz she is the mother of God"?[/quote]

I haven't read the whole thread, but I saw this and had to respond! I understand it so well. This was the one, the very last issue that kept me out of the Catholic Church for several years: Mary, the saints, and the appearance of idolatry. It just didn't compute.

The first thing, as everyone has no doubt told you, is that Catholics of course do *not* believe in worshipping Mary. But one still has that niggling doubt, "It sure looks like it!"

I can tell you from my own direct experience that it just isn't. The key is in what you said about all the arrows pointing to Jesus. You're right, they do - even Mary's finger! One of the few things we get to hear her say in Scripture is (pointing at Jesus) "Do whatever He tells you." Drawing closer to Mary in love *always* brings us closer to Jesus.

I mean, yes, it's true that *sometimes* love for our earthly mother could get in the way of Christ. But that would only happen if our Mom wasn't totally aligned with Christ, right? Maybe she wanted us to do something that was contrary to God's will, or the like? Most of the time, it works the other way - the closer you are to your mother (or anyone else!) in love, the closer you will be to Jesus. "Whoever hates the brother he sees cannot love the God he does not see." It works the other way too.

But Mary IS totally aligned with Christ, all the time. She is "full of grace". She will always send us to Him with love and prayers. I know so very well how dangerous this seems from the outside; how easy it seems it would be to go too far. But from the inside, it just isn't like that.

I recall very well the trepidation with which I said my first Hail Mary. (My head had been convinced, but my emotions hadn't fully caught up yet.) But I had decided to say it once a day just to give her a chance. Within a week, I was in love. She was my Mom - and nobody worships their Mom! It would feel just silly, don't you think?

Here are two ways of looking at the whole thing that have been helpful to me:

1) St. John always calls himself 'the disciple Jesus loved' to invite us to see ourselves in his place - to realize that Jesus is speaking to us just as much as to him. Well, at the foot of the Cross, Jesus says to the disciple, "Behold your mother."

She is our Mother because she's His and we are part of His Body. And He honors His Father and Mother - it's not like He's going to disobey His own commandments! - and so we should too.

The disciple then from that day took Mary into his home. And we should too. After all, Jesus honored His Father and Mother - he didn't disobey His own commandment - and we should imitate Him, surely?

2) Did you realize that in the Kingdom of Israel, the Queen was not the King's wife (he often had many wives) but the King's mother? Her title in Hebrew was Gebirah, or "Great Lady", and her job in the kingdom was to bring the requests of the people to the King.

You can see this in action in 1 Kings 2 - Bathsheba brings a request of Adonijah to Solomon. Read it and see how King Solomon treats her (even though he has to turn down her request); this appears to be court ritual back then.

So if Jesus is the King of Heaven, the Son of David, the fulfillment of Israel, then Mary is the Queen of Heaven, the "Great Lady", whose role it is to bring our requests to Him. Not that He *needs* her to, of course - it's not like she's doing something He couldn't do Himself. But then God doesn't NEED us to do anything, He LIKES to do things with us, right? And that's the pattern He established in Israel, and it's the pattern He still uses.

That's why the crown (along with Revelation 11), and that's why we love to ask her prayers above all the other saints. It's her job! (Yes, I know there's a pagan god, doubtless a demon, that called itself the Queen of Heaven, but then demons always love lies that are close to the truth. The name 'Baal' means 'Lord' - same sort of thing.)

[Ziggamafu]

There is only one Son of God by nature - the man Christ Jesus - but by grace, we may become "sons in the Son" by entering into the Son's Body. Likewise there is only one mediator and likewise is the solution made known.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='25 August 2009 - 07:14 AM' timestamp='1251206060' post='1956026']
There is only one Son of God by nature - the man Christ Jesus - but by grace, we may become "sons in the Son" by entering into the Son's Body. Likewise there is only one mediator and likewise is the solution made known.
[/quote]
Well said.

[perfectunion33]

If you love your mother on earth, than love your Heavenly Mother as well. My advice to all protestants who attack Mary is to keep in mind that you are attacking the Mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our Lord chose to be born of Her, and was subject to Her during His life, he kept the commandment " Honour thy father and mother". If our Lord Jesus Christ Himself honoured Mary, than how much the more should we? As Catholics we do not worship Mary, for worship is due to God alone, we venerate Her. No one says that you have to pray to Mary, we as Catholics encourage the faithful to Marian devotion because throughout the centuries Her intercession has been proven to be very powerful with God.

[LouisvilleFan]

Protestants are not attacking Mary. They simply don't see strong biblical support for believing that she was conceived without sin, lived without sin, and assumed body and soul into heaven.

Those who perpetuate theories that Mary had premarital relations (to suggest Jesus was not virgin born) are attacking her.

[Mark of the Cross]

[size="2"]To be declared a saint, ordinarily, one should intercede with a miracle. The miracle is a sign that he/she is united with God. God would have performed the miracle upon the intercession of the saint. As for Mary, she is not God. But she was the mother of Jesus. We have veneration("doulia") for Mary, but not adoration ("latria"),which is proper only to God. God must be pleased if we give the proper respect to Mary, because He had the angel Gabriel show respect to Mary. And even Jesus Himself honoured Mary even when "His time had not yet come" at the wedding at Cana. I guess Mary was the closest human being to Jesus, not only in glorious times but as well in Jesus' sacrifice.[/size]

[size="2"]Father A Palomo PE East Timor
[/size]

Edited September 17, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[Christopher Brandon]

okay now, wheres that penny slot? *searches around* oh! there it is, now I can put in my 2 cents.

Saints are apointed by the church, the church is made up of man. take that however you want.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='17 September 2009 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1253244881' post='1968421']
okay now, wheres that penny slot? *searches around* oh! there it is, now I can put in my 2 cents.

Saints are apointed by the church, the church is made up of man. take that however you want.
[/quote]
No matter how matter-of-fact you say it, it doesn't make you any more correct.

[Selah]

I find it funny that people who use this argument have no problem asking a friend to pray.

Asking someone to pray is asking another person to go to God on your behalf. To be a mediator. With their logic, why not go to Jesus yourself instead of asking me to pray for you?

"Oh, but Mary and the saints are dead." No they aren't. They're with God and are more alive than we are right now! Why would we become separate from each other at death? If the Body of Christ is truley the Body of Christ, we can not be separated.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

Jesus tells us to behold our Mother. Behold, means to look at or contemplate.

[Christopher Brandon]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 September 2009 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1253282270' post='1968557']
No matter how matter-of-fact you say it, it doesn't make you any more correct.
[/quote]

you mean saints arn't apointed by the church? and the church, is not defined as a place where men gather in the name of God?

this is not me being hostile, this is a serious question now, I'm asking just to understand, if thats not true what is?

[Skinzo]

I think the shortest version of the reason we venerate Mary is this: Without Jesus, no Mary. Without Mary, no Jesus.
I can't remember where I heard that or even if I have it quite right.

S.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

To be correct a church is defined as a community of people or an assembly of persons. It is not a place. Two people can be communing together in the name of Christ and his true teachings and there is the Church. Hope this helps.

[Christopher Brandon]

[quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='18 September 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1253302660' post='1968734']
To be correct a church is defined as a community of people or an assembly of persons. It is not a place. Two people can be communing together in the name of Christ and his true teachings and there is the Church. Hope this helps. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img]
[/quote]

right, thats what I meant, I should have known better then to use the word place. my point being that the church irreguardless is made up of man.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='18 September 2009 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1253303120' post='1968739']
right, thats what I meant, I should have known better then to use the word place. my point being that the church irreguardless is made up of man.
[/quote]

But the Church is also supernatural - she is the bride of Christ. So while she is composed of human beings, she is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit from error.

[Christopher Brandon]

[quote name='Maggie' date='18 September 2009 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1253303516' post='1968744']
she is guided and protected by the Holy Spirit from error.
[/quote]

but arn't all who are faithful?