Christopher Brandon Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='mommas_boy' date='20 September 2009 - 11:29 PM' timestamp='1253503791' post='1970156'] Indeed, without parents and teachers to bring us up in the Faith, where would we be? Should we not teach our children, and expect that the Holy Spirit will "provide enough guidance"? [/quote] And you doubt the Holy Spirit would include our freinds and brothers in his guidance?
mommas_boy Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='20 September 2009 - 11:33 PM' timestamp='1253504018' post='1970160'] And you doubt the Holy Spirit would include our freinds and brothers in his guidance? [/quote] And you doubt the Holy Spirit would include the historical examples of the Saints in His guidance?
LouisvilleFan Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='21 September 2009 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1253503550' post='1970152'] I don't think I agree with you. Jesus said it is by our own faith we are healed. Blind as my faith may be I believe we can recieve guidance enough from the holy spirit to avoid error. though it certainly would not be easy. [/quote] Indeed, you [i]can[/i]. It is possible for any individual Christian to avoid all error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Whether you [i]will[/i] or not is a different question, isn't it?
Christopher Brandon Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='mommas_boy' date='20 September 2009 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1253504327' post='1970165'] And you doubt the Holy Spirit would include the historical examples of the Saints in His guidance? [/quote] No, I think he uses the historical examples of people, I simply think it's wrong to call these people Saints. I agree that these people were good people, but giving them a title at all for what they did gives the impression to those outside the church that saints were more then good, they were [i]better[/i] wich as we're told all men were created equal I think just puts off the wrong message. But yes I think the ones you call Saints are included in the Holy Spirit's arsonal. but you didn't deny your doubt that the Holy Spirit is capeable of protecting us from error useing our friends, family even strangers. do you confirm?
Christopher Brandon Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='20 September 2009 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1253504834' post='1970174'] Indeed, you [i]can[/i]. It is possible for any individual Christian to avoid all error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Whether you [i]will[/i] or not is a different question, isn't it? [/quote] EXACTLY THANK YOU! thats all I was trying to say, it's not promised, or owed. but it's not impossible.
mommas_boy Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='20 September 2009 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1253504878' post='1970175'] No, I think he uses the historical examples of people, I simply think it's wrong to call these people Saints. I agree that these people were good people, but giving them a title at all for what they did gives the impression to those outside the church that saints were more then good, they were [i]better[/i] wich as we're told all men were created equal I think just puts off the wrong message. But yes I think the ones you call Saints are included in the Holy Spirit's arsonal. but you didn't deny your doubt that the Holy Spirit is capeable of protecting us from error useing our friends, family even strangers. do you confirm? [/quote] No, I do not confirm that doubt, as I had hoped would have been implied in the spirit of my posts. Indeed, one of the primary principals behind the idea of "Church", that is, a community of believers, is to function as you describe. No, I deny that doubt. I would also caution, however, that human beings are, as you noted previously, fallible. We have free will. As one of my good friends once said (here making ample use of hyperbole to emphasize his point), "God has given us [the people] the power to render Him powerless" by allowing us to reject His love, and to reject showing that love to others. Just as a parent would warn their own child that their "friend" might be a bad role model, so too does the Church tell us who are [b]good[/b] role models to follow. The Church calls these good role models Saints, and she lifts them up so that we know whose example we ought to follow. You see, the Church is [b]echoing[/b] Christ's call for everyone to become Saints. When you read the lives of these Saints, you begin to realize just how real they were. You say that calling them Saints gives the impression that they "were more than good, they were better", but the Church intends the exact opposite. If you wish to see these Saints as the Church sees them, then read the stories of their lives. Failure to see the Saints as nothing more than human is not the fault of the Church.
Christopher Brandon Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='mommas_boy' date='21 September 2009 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1253505683' post='1970186'] No, I do not confirm that doubt, as I had hoped would have been implied in the spirit of my posts. Indeed, one of the primary principals behind the idea of "Church", that is, a community of believers, is to function as you describe. No, I deny that doubt. I would also caution, however, that human beings are, as you noted previously, fallible. We have free will. As one of my good friends once said (here making ample use of hyperbole to emphasize his point), "God has given us [the people] the power to render Him powerless" by allowing us to reject His love, and to reject showing that love to others. Just as a parent would warn their own child that their "friend" might be a bad role model, so too does the Church tell us who are [b]good[/b] role models to follow. The Church calls these good role models Saints, and she lifts them up so that we know whose example we ought to follow. You see, the Church is [b]echoing[/b] Christ's call for everyone to become Saints. When you read the lives of these Saints, you begin to realize just how real they were. You say that calling them Saints gives the impression that they "were more than good, they were better", but the Church intends the exact opposite. If you wish to see these Saints as the Church sees them, then read the stories of their lives. Failure to see the Saints as nothing more than human is not the fault of the Church. [/quote] For the first paragraph, thats good to hear for the second, yes we are fallible. but I never suggested the Holy Spirit would pull strings on us like a puppet, I said he guides us. A parent can guide a child not to steal but that doesn't mean the child won't, wich is why I said "arn't all who are faithful?" to hear the holy spirits guidance and too ignore it seems unfaithful to me. and for the third, you agree that the saints are no better then the rest of us, wich means they are still equal and as Mary is equal to us so is her guidance from the holy sprit
Vincent Vega Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='20 September 2009 - 11:47 PM' timestamp='1253504834' post='1970174'] Indeed, you [i]can[/i]. It is possible for any individual Christian to avoid all error by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Whether you [i]will[/i] or not is a different question, isn't it? [/quote] This. [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='20 September 2009 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1253505118' post='1970182'] EXACTLY THANK YOU! thats all I was trying to say, it's not promised, or owed. but it's not impossible. [/quote] Indeed, that's the difference. While we may be strengthened by the Holy Spirit, we are not guaranteed to be free from error in the same way that the Church is. [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='21 September 2009 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1253506346' post='1970197'] and for the third, you agree that the saints are no better then the rest of us, wich means they are still equal and as Mary is equal to us so is her guidance from the holy sprit [/quote] The saints may not have been any better than us when they were here on Earth, but now they are indeed better than us, as they are closer to God, and free from all of their sins PLUS all of their [i]attachment [/i]to sin - an imperfection of which we can not cleanse ourselves on earth. Plus, Mary was not bound by the constrains of original sin, meaning that she is and always has been better than us (a trait shared by only one other who ever lived). Edited September 21, 2009 by USAirwaysIHS
Christopher Brandon Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='21 September 2009 - 12:28 AM' timestamp='1253507308' post='1970210'] The saints may not have been any better than us when they were here on Earth, but now they are indeed better than us, as they are closer to God, and free from all of their sins PLUS all of their [i]attachment [/i]to sin - an imperfection which of which we can not cleanse ourselves on earth. Plus, Mary was not bound by the constrains of original sin, meaning that she is and always has been better than us (a trait shared by only one other who ever lived). [/quote] okay, THIS I understand, thank you Airways. But I still stand firm on my belief of the Holy Spirit.
Vincent Vega Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='21 September 2009 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1253507440' post='1970215'] okay, THIS I understand, thank you Airways. But I still stand firm on my belief of the Holy Spirit. [/quote] I fear then that there is some misunderstanding between us. You're not under the impression that humans, even those imbued with the Holy Spirit and His gifts, are incapable of sin, correct?
Christopher Brandon Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='21 September 2009 - 12:32 AM' timestamp='1253507567' post='1970218'] I fear then that there is some misunderstanding between us. You're not under the impression that humans, even those imbued with the Holy Spirit and His gifts, are incapable of sin, correct? [/quote] no no lol. not incapeable, but capeable. capeable of avoiding sin, not immune from it.
Vincent Vega Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='21 September 2009 - 12:37 AM' timestamp='1253507836' post='1970225'] no no lol. not incapeable, but capeable. capeable of avoiding sin, not immune from it. [/quote] Certainly, yes. We are all capable from avoiding sin and error, but that is not guaranteed to us. For the Church, when Jesus founded it upon Peter, He said that whatever Peter "bound shall be bound in Heaven" and what he "loosed shall be loosed in Heaven." We interpret this as meaning that Jesus would make sure that as it was in God's Kingdom, so would it be in His "embassy" to the world - his Church. I hope that's not too far-out - I've been working on a project for the past twelve hours and my brain is slightly mangled.
LouisvilleFan Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Christopher Brandon' date='21 September 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1253505118' post='1970182'] EXACTLY THANK YOU! thats all I was trying to say, it's not promised, or owed. but it's not impossible. [/quote] Well, that said, such an individual being guided perfectly by the Holy Spirit would be guided into communion: both with the three Persons of God and with fellow believers that make up the Church. Edited September 21, 2009 by LouisvilleFan
Mark of the Cross Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='21 September 2009 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1253507308' post='1970210'] The saints may not have been any better than us when they were here on Earth, but now they are indeed better than us, as they are closer to God, and free from all of their sins PLUS all of their [i]attachment [/i]to sin - an imperfection of which we can not cleanse ourselves on earth. Plus, Mary was not bound by the constrains of original sin, meaning that she is and always has been better than us (a trait shared by only one other who ever lived). [/quote] How does this remain compatible with all men/women are equal in the eyes of God? Catholics pray to Saints (without qoting my priest friend in East Timor again) but it is God who performs the miricle/'s. Through Mary the greatest miricle of all was performed but she was not the one who did it. Is a street child in Calcutta any less a saint?
Selah Posted September 21, 2009 Posted September 21, 2009 A saint is simply a regular person who has lived a great life for God! Everyone is called to be a Saint, even the little boy in Calcutta. What he means is, they are "better" in the sense that they are no longer bound by sin. They are closer to God then we are right now. But it's okay: they take advantage of it by praying for us :
LouisvilleFan Posted September 22, 2009 Posted September 22, 2009 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='21 September 2009 - 06:08 PM' timestamp='1253567310' post='1970596'] How does this remain compatible with all men/women are equal in the eyes of God? Catholics pray to Saints (without qoting my priest friend in East Timor again) but it is God who performs the miricle/'s. Through Mary the greatest miricle of all was performed but she was not the one who did it. Is a street child in Calcutta any less a saint? [/quote] All people are equal in dignity. We are not equal in humility.
Mark of the Cross Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 [quote name='Selah' date='22 September 2009 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1253567896' post='1970601'] A saint is simply a regular person who has lived a great life for God! Everyone is called to be a Saint, even the little boy in Calcutta. What he means is, they are "better" in the sense that they are no longer bound by sin. They are closer to God then we are right now. But it's okay: they take advantage of it by praying for us : [/quote] If this is the case, then 'better' is not a good choice of words. They are not subjected to Satan and sin, which we are at this time. But removing the temporal factor, we have all been subjected to Satan and sin and then AD we won't be. A saint is a person whom God has blessed with a special calling which has made them more noted by mankind than saints whom have never been recognised. There are many who have not attained Saintly recognition, but saints are no better than them. Maybe more glorified in God's calling than most! [quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='23 September 2009 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1253628134' post='1970963'] All people are equal in dignity. We are not equal in humility. [/quote] Not sure what you mean! Dignity and humility seem like earthly parameters. In God's kingdom, God's love is digital so to speak. If you have it, it is absolutus maximus. All are equal in the eyes of God.
Selah Posted September 23, 2009 Posted September 23, 2009 [quote]All are equal in the eyes of God. [/quote] True, but their roles are not. [quote]If this is the case, then 'better' is not a good choice of words. They are not subjected to Satan and sin, which we are at this time. But removing the temporal factor, we have all been subjected to Satan and sin and then AD we won't be. A saint is a person whom God has blessed with a special calling which has made them more noted by mankind than saints whom have never been recognised. There are many who have not attained Saintly recognition, but saints are no better than them. Maybe more glorified in God's calling than most![/quote] It's not about who's better than the other. All a saint is is a person who has done great things. We look to them and try to live as they did.
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