Swimmers Are Told To Wear Burkinis

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1951015' date='Aug 17 2009, 04:22 AM']Why not? It's a public pool, Muslim residents pay for the upkeep. It's not as though the pool has these dress codes of Muslim standards all the time, or even most of the time. As someone else pointed out the pools already have specific times set aside themed for particular groups. What is wrong with a time being set aside so a part of the population who would otherwise be culturally excluded may use the the pool they help pay for?[/quote]


[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1951021' date='Aug 17 2009, 05:29 AM']Yeah, my first thought was to dismiss it as ridiculous, but the more I think about it, the less it bothers me since it's just specific times. I mean, the pool here is reserved for parents with children under 5 on Wednesdays from 10.30-12.00, and you have to sign up in advance for that. So it doesn't seem like a huge stretch to have a specific time set aside for Muslims, I guess.[/quote]

I've honestly never been to a public pool with that type of thing. The only set hours for a specific group were for exercise groups like water aerobics. I don't suppose I have a problem with having something like that set up so much as I do the insistence that other people have to follow Muslim rules to enter the building (so to speak). It'd be one thing if it were their property, but it's not. Other people are paying the city taxes or whatever that fund the place, too, so they should be allowed to wear whatever they want.

If they're going to cater to one group like that then, like HSMom pointed out, they're going to have to cater to ALL groups.

[quote name='Winchester' post='1951076' date='Aug 17 2009, 11:24 AM']One set of rules, reasonably made. You don't like it, revolt.

Seems like a workable solution.[/quote]

That's generally my way of thinking.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='IcePrincessKRS' post='1951103' date='Aug 17 2009, 04:09 PM']I've honestly never been to a public pool with that type of thing. The only set hours for a specific group were for exercise groups like water aerobics. I don't suppose I have a problem with having something like that set up so much as I do the insistence that other people have to follow Muslim rules to enter the building (so to speak). It'd be one thing if it were their property, but it's not. Other people are paying the city taxes or whatever that fund the place, too, so they should be allowed to wear whatever they want.

If they're going to cater to one group like that then, like HSMom pointed out, they're going to have to cater to ALL groups.[/quote]
That was kinda my point in mentioning that. If they're already catering to other groups, then I can see how it makes sense to cater to another. The problem will be when a group isn't accommodated for some reason, or there are too many groups to properly allocate time.

[zunshynn]

I don't think it's comparable to catering to nudists, as full nudity is illegal in most places... and if it wasn't, they would be able to go to the pool (all the more reason for times when people want to swim fully clothed), or there would be special times for them. I can't see many different groups having

It might be spurred by catering to Muslims, but it could validly serve the needs of lots of people... Hasidic Jews, some Christians, or anyone who doesn't want to see the normal skimpy bikini attire. I especially think its great to allow kids the opportunity to go swimming that normally wouldn't be allowed to. I kind of suspect most Muslims would still not use it, but there's nothing wrong with trying to accomodate them anyway, especially because there are a lot of other people who would probably enjoy something like that. And if it turned out to not be useful, they could always stop doing it.

And Hassan is right... it's their taxes, too... I don't see why the pool shouldn't try to provide an opportunity for them to use it. Everyone else who pays taxes and doesn't care what people are wearing can go most of the week. I mean, in effect, the pool is just closed for that time. The pool already has times when it is not open, no one thinks that its unfair for a public facility to be closed sometimes and I don't see why it would be such a big deal for it to be closed for an hour and a half more a week for groups that want more modest attire.

And I think it is pretty common for there to be "family times" at most pools, and I've also seen some that have times for the elderly.

Edited August 17, 2009 by zunshynn

[Hassan]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1951039' date='Aug 17 2009, 06:10 AM']When do the nudists get to swim? Aren't they culturally excluded?[/quote]


Are nudists a significant and tax paying presence in the community where the pools are?


Additionally, on another point someone made. The article doesn't say that the time is only for Muslims, but rather that during that time one individuals meeting a particular dress code are allowed in.

[Hassan]

Moreover I think the comparison is a cheep (for Winchester) one. As far as I know nudists don't feel religious obligated to not wear clothing, it's just their preference.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1951156' date='Aug 17 2009, 12:17 PM']Are nudists a significant and tax paying presence in the community where the pools are?[/quote]
I have no idea...

[quote]Additionally, on another point someone made. The article doesn't say that the time is only for Muslims, but rather that during that time one individuals meeting a particular dress code are allowed in.[/quote]
But here's where I see the rub.... I'm not especially fond of the bikinis, thongs, speedos etc at all. <shudder> It offends me and I don't really want my son to see half naked girls at the pool. My kids wear modest swimsuits-- one piece with a skirt and a swim shirt, and long trunks for the boys.... we would not be welcome in the "modesty hour" because we are not modest enough. So we would be in the "regular" swim time. So, would they be willing to make a "moderately modest" swim hour for those of us who don't like to look at bikinis and speedos, but who don't qualify for the other? Doubtful. My options are to suc[i][/i]k-it-up and go when we want to and deal with everyone else or not go. That's life. And I'm a taxpayer, too. My point was are we going to segregate all of the timeslots into designated swim times to accomodate everyone's perception of modesty and acceptability or do we say, "These are the parameters of acceptable swimwear... if you want to wear more, be our guest"?

[Hassan]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1951171' date='Aug 17 2009, 12:29 PM']So, would they be willing to make a "moderately modest" swim hour for those of us who don't like to look at bikinis and speedos, but who don't qualify for the other? Doubtful. My options are to suc[i][/i]k-it-up and go when we want to and deal with everyone else or not go. That's life. And I'm a taxpayer, too.[/quote]


Are you a tax payer willing to actively lobby your city council over the matter? Are there large numbers of individuals in your district with similar concerns?

I can appreciate your point but I don't know what to say other than that living in a pluralistic society is messy. You try to accommodate everyone as best as you can and within reason but a few people are going to remain not fully satisfied. But simply because a few will not be really happy with any of the accommodations doesn't mean you scrap the whole idea.

Being pluralistic really isn't just something we do out of the goodness of our hearts. Historically diversity and toleration, within reason, is an integral part of major powers retaining their preeminence. Go to any college campus and, particularly if it's a good school, you will see Asians, Arabs, Indians and other individuals with families from the South Asia region substantially disproportionally represented. They aren't going to assimilate in a generation, the Catholics certainly didn' eithert. In the mean time you accommodate the differences as best you can.

Is this seriously hurting you? I mean is the country going to collapse if the pool culturally accommodates itself to the Muslim presence in the neighborhood for three hours out of the week? I don't think so. In my High School Catholic were a minority but still noticeably present. Sometimes the Holy Days of Obligation fell during the school week. During Ash Wensday the Catholic students and the few teachers broke uniform policy and walked around with ashes on their foreheads. The school worked around this. Teachers turned a blind eye one Wensday out of the year and the administrators were willing to not count missing part of a few days to meet Mass obligations against your total number. A guess some Evangelical parents could have made similar arguments to yours. And I would sort of see their point but to be honest at some point it just seems like nitpicking and opposing a very reasonable accommodation just for the hell of it. I'm not trying to sound dismissive of your concerns by the way. I guess I'm just saying that I don't know of any clear cut solution.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Hassan

[StColette]

Not sure if this has been brought up or not, but since they would require non Muslims to wear burkinis during that particular swim time, would the pool require Muslims to not wear burkinis during the other swim hours. I mean say a Muslim family couldn't make it to their specified swim hour and had to swim during one of the other hours where the people wouldn't be wearing burkinis. Could the pool require the Muslim family not to wear burkinis if they wished to swim during that time slot?

I think the problem I'm having with this is that you know I would never want to take away their right to wear a burkini or whatever, but I don't want my right to wear what I consider a modest swimsuit taken away either. I mean I'd be pretty ticked if someone told me that only thong bikinis were allowed at a certain time and if I wasn't wearing one than I couldn't swim lol I mean what do you do if that's the only time period you can swim at and there's not another pool around.