Resurrexi Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 The Eastern Orthodox are heretical and schismatic, however, while Sedevacantists are only schismatic, that is until a future Pope defines a dogma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Formosus' post='1841479' date='Apr 20 2009, 01:12 PM']I find it impossible to "convert" a member of the Eastern Orthodox communion since they already hold the SAME faith as the Catholic Church. There is a disagreement on expression of that faith and on the day to day Church governance, but these disagreements are not to the level of Faith. When one says that the Eastern Orthodox are in heresy,they are saying that Greek Catholics are in heresy too because we believe the EXACT SAME THING as they do. Our division and separation is only because of political reality and misunderstanding. St. Maximos the Confessor saw this when it was first beginning to arise,Pope Leo VIII saw this during the controversy with St. Photios. A corporate reunion of Churches is the only way that the schism will truly be healed and any other means will never solve any issue but create more animosity between Churches.[/quote] Well said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' post='1842034' date='Apr 20 2009, 08:42 PM']That includes Sedes as much as Eastern Orthodox, of course. [/quote] no worries I knew the implications. Fortunately I believe Catholicism excepts sedes (as a general rule) from being schismatic. Though of course, if it is true that sedes are schismatic then PM sure doesn't make much effort reaching out to us Edited April 21, 2009 by goldenchild17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abercius24 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) I am intrigued by this discussion and am learning a lot! Can anyone share more about the Balamand Agreement? Who attended from the West? What changes occured in our relationship with the Eastern Orthodox as a result of the agreement? Apo? Edited April 21, 2009 by abercius24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1842069' date='Apr 20 2009, 11:07 PM'][b]The Eastern Orthodox are heretical [/b]and schismatic, however, while Sedevacantists are only schismatic, that is until a future Pope defines a dogma.[/quote] So what you are saying is that Eastern Catholics are heretics? Since we believe exactly the same as they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Formosus is correct . . . Eastern Catholics have the same faith as Eastern Orthodox Christians. As an Eastern Catholic I accept the so-called Zoghby Initiative, which was approved by the Melkite Catholic Patriarch and the Holy Synod of the Melkite Church in the mid 1990s. Moreover, that Synodal Declaration remains the official position of the Melkite Catholic Church to this day: [i][b](1) I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches. (2) I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation. [/b][/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1842694' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:33 PM']Formosus is correct . . . Eastern Catholics have the same faith as Eastern Orthodox Christians. As an Eastern Catholic I accept the so-called Zoghby Initiative, which was approved by the Melkite Catholic Patriarch and the Holy Synod of the Melkite Church in the mid 1990s. Moreover, that Synodal Declaration remains the official position of the Melkite Catholic Church to this day: [i][b](1) I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches. (2) I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation. [/b][/i][/quote] Do those limits include Papal infallibility? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='rkwright' post='1842702' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:40 PM']Do those limits include Papal infallibility?[/quote] No, not as set forth at Vatican I, because the Melkite Catholic Church does not accept the teaching of Vatican I as ecumenical and dogmatic. That said, it does accept the infallibility of the Church (and all her ministers, including the pope) when they decree a particular teaching as of the faith. That is why the phrase ". . . according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation," are in the Synodal Declaration. Edited April 21, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Formosus' post='1842676' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:17 PM']So what you are saying is that Eastern Catholics are heretics? Since we believe exactly the same as they do.[/quote] According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Code of Canon Law "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same." According to the First Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff is a divinely revealed dogma. Therefore, anyone who knowingly denies this this truth is guilty of heresy. Edited April 21, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1842727' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:54 PM']According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Code of Canon Law "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same." According to the First Ecumenical Council of the Vatican, the infallibility of the Roman Pontiff is a divinely revealed dogma. Therefore, anyone who denies this this truth is guilty of heresy.[/quote] the Eastern Catholics that I know and trust also accept this doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Since Eastern Catholics do not accept the fourteen particular synods of the Latin Church as ecumenical, it follows that the teachings of those councils are not dogma, but represent merely the theologoumena of the Roman Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='goldenchild17' post='1842748' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:08 PM'] the Eastern Catholics that I know and trust also accept this doctrine.[/quote] I know a few (very few) Eastern Catholics who accept the Latin Councils as ecumenical, but the majority of Eastern Catholics that I know accept the teachings of the fourteen Latin Synods as theologoumena. As Melkite Catholic Archbishop Zoghby wrote: "Vatican I has the same designation as the Council of Lyons, a 'general' synod of the West. With this designation it is neither ecumenical nor infallible and could produce only theological opinions that can not be imposed on anyone." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1842751' date='Apr 21 2009, 05:10 PM']Since Eastern Catholics do not accept the fourteen particular synods of the Latin Church as ecumenical, it follows that the teachings of those councils are not dogma, but represent merely the theologoumena of the Roman Church.[/quote] The Eastern Catholics I know accept all 21 Ecumenical Councils as ecumenical. Edited April 21, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 Fair enough. Though I still, and this should come as no real surprise considering my status here, I still have to disagree. I believe East and West are allowed to differ on very many points and have many disagreements on many things. But I do believe that both East and West is bound by the infallible teachings put out by the Church, whether this be through all the bishops together or infallibly through the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted April 21, 2009 Share Posted April 21, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1842762' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:17 PM']The Eastern Catholics I know in real life do.[/quote] Well, evidently we hang out at very different Eastern Catholic parishes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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