Christopher West Attack?!

[jswranch]

[url="http://skellmeyer.blogspot.com/2009/09/chris-and-cult.html"]Recently a Catholic speaker in my area has lead a strong critique against Christopher West[/url]. In the past I have held this local guy in very high esteem. It seems to be a lot of twisting of words out of context. Feels like I am debating a Fundi hell bent on convincing me I worship Mary.

Thoughts?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Mr. West is worthy of criticism imo so I'm not surprised. Hopefully this fellow is being fair, but either way I do not believe West to be beyond criticism and it could be interesting to see what this guy has to say. I wouldn't be too impressed by flaming ad hominem attacks, but legitimate theological and philosophical objections are always fun.

Small world btw: I have taken a college course with the Dr. Healy mentioned in your article which involved reading the TOTB (among other things) and I must say that I prefer Healy's treatment of the text to that of West (I've heard many of his talks and have read some of his books). Theological issues aside, I find his approach to be tacky.

[StColette]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 September 2009 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1254096781' post='1973484']

Small world btw: I have taken a college course with the Dr. Healy mentioned in your article which involved reading the TOTB (among other things) and I must say that I prefer Healy's treatment of the text to that of West (I've heard many of his talks and have read some of his books). Theological issues aside, I find his approach to be tacky.
[/quote]

I took 4 classes with Dr. Healy as well. One of them involved reading parts of TOTB and I agree with you, I like Healy's approach a lot more than West's.

[littleflower+JMJ]

In the conferences I've been to and talks I've heard, many times given by priests, they do not recommend West.

[mommas_boy]

I'm not familiar with Healy's approach. But I've always felt that West's approach was really a kind of "marketing" approach to make the ToB more accessible to the general public. I've seen West as kind of JPII's "rock star" who tries to get peoples' attention initially with a kind of "shock value", so that maybe they'll do a little more research on their own.

[Apotheoun]

Below are some links to a couple of threads about Christopher West's theories:

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=93809&st=0"][u]Christopher West on Nightline[/u][/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=94338&st=0"][u]Christopher West's Theology of the Body[/u][u][/u][/url]

[Theoketos]

Christopher West is a great popularizer of the Theology of the Body. I am not surprised that so many now hold him in low esteem as he is doing rather extra-ordinary work.

Edit to add concerning Apotheoun's links about the nigtline interview

The nightline interview is so over the top out of context, I have a hard time even conceiving that people take it seriously. Mr. West is not God, nor has he been beyond reproach, but nothing worth talking about comes from those videos.

[Apotheoun]

This is just my opinion, but I consider Mr. West's theories to be unorthodox.

[CatherineM]

I don't know what to think about him. I've read Theology of the Body, one Wednesday session at a time. It is magnificent. I've also sat through a presentation by one of West's disciples, and wasn't impressed. That was largely due to the fact he just read word for word out of the workbooks we got at the beginning. Sometimes you can be put off by something because of the presentation rather than the substance.

[StColette]

I'm going to email Dr. Healy (I believe I still have his email and # hanging around here somewhere) and ask if he can send me a copy of his speech that is mentioned in the article.

You can download the lecture from Dr. Healy and the response from West here

http://www.thepersonalistproject.org/index.php/TPP/downloads/

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='28 September 2009 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1254110992' post='1973570']
Christopher West is a great popularizer of the Theology of the Body. I am not surprised that so many now hold him in low esteem as he is doing rather extra-ordinary work.

Edit to add concerning Apotheoun's links about the nigtline interview

The nightline interview is so over the top out of context, I have a hard time even conceiving that people take it seriously. Mr. West is not God, nor has he been beyond reproach, but nothing worth talking about comes from those videos.
[/quote]
There was a time I would have agreed with you, but today I have much more reservation about West's work, primarily due to the fact that I've done more study on my own of the original documents and I think there are some areas where he takes significant liberties with the theology of the body that border on being unorthodox.

I first heard about the theology of the body by listening to tapes of his "Naked Without Shame" lecture series, and frankly they were instrumental in bringing me into the Church. I listened to them multiple times, and was impressed by his clearly enthusiastic presentation. West has a dynamic presence and a charismatic style of ordering the material. It makes it difficult, at first, to listen to people who criticize him, because almost no other writers on the subject have the same charisma. He really works hard to connect with a common audience, which is a good thing -- so long as the material he's using to connect with is actually orthodox.

But, I think that taking on a job like West has done entails a significant amount of responsibility to ensure that the methods you use to present it, the means by which you promote it, and your underlying presuppositions are all orthodox. The "Nightline" interview might have been "over the top" but it still indicates a carelessness on West's part that is disturbing.

While West has done a great job of getting the word out about the theology of the body, and probably spurred a number of people (including myself) to look into it more deeply, I think just as many people take him at face value and dig no deeper.

[quote name='CatherineM' date='28 September 2009 - 12:52 AM' timestamp='1254113557' post='1973588']
I don't know what to think about him. I've read Theology of the Body, one Wednesday session at a time. It is magnificent. I've also sat through a presentation by one of West's disciples, and wasn't impressed. That was largely due to the fact he just read word for word out of the workbooks we got at the beginning. Sometimes you can be put off by something because of the presentation rather than the substance.
[/quote]
Agreed. I think West has gotten the hearing he has (thus far) because of his presentation style and enthusiasm, and I for one am glad to see that people are now starting to critique his substance more thoroughly.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='littleflower+JMJ' date='27 September 2009 - 09:11 PM' timestamp='1254107513' post='1973533']
In the conferences I've been to and talks I've heard, many times given by priests, they do not recommend West.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
me too, but most likely for entirely different reasons.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='28 September 2009 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1254156103' post='1973720']
+J.M.J.+
me too, but most likely for entirely different reasons.
[/quote]

I would agree with this as many more likely oppose West not on what he exactly says, as much as the mere fact he is popularizing TOTB.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1254160290' post='1973770']
I would agree with this as many more likely oppose West not on what he exactly says, as much as the mere fact he is popularizing TOTB.
[/quote]
The problem - as I see it - is that Mr. West's comments often do not conform to the common tradition of the whole Church.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1254160923' post='1973781']
The problem - as I see it - is that Mr. West's comments often do not conform to the common tradition of the whole Church.
[/quote]

Okay, I wasn't defending or attacking West or saying anything about how his comments related to the Church. I was merely agreeing with Lil Red that likely more priests oppose West for reasons other then the ones you and others are pointing out.

[StColette]

This quote from West caught my attention

[quote]Okay. Take a good-hearted couple. If they know their weaknesses, if they know if they were alone together, they would engage in behavior that they shouldn't be engaging in, I will be the first to commend them for not being alone together. Christian, know thyself. But we must not call that virtue.

"Such a couple is continent, but they are not virtuous, in the true sense of the word, in the true Thomistic sense of the wor
[/quote]

I always thought that removing oneself from the near occasion of sin was virtuous, because it is part of the virtue of prudence. At least, that's what I remember from Kreeft's book "Back to Virtue".

I also find this late quote a little confusing

[quote]"Think of it from this perspective: If the only thing that kept you from having sex before marriage was the fact that you didn't have the opportunity, what does that say about the desires of your heart? And then there is a real and present danger of justifying lust within the marriage.[/quote]

Mr. West is giving two different perspectives here. In the first one he is saying that the couple does have the opportunity but keeps themselves out of the situation, but that's not virtue. And then a few sentence later compares it to a couple that didn't have sex before marriage just because they weren't given the opportunity. These are two very different situations and he's making them out to be the same, when in fact they aren't. One couple is practicing prudence/temperance, while the other just isn't faced with that situation because of proximity or whatever.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1254161358' post='1973787']
Okay, I wasn't defending or attacking West or saying anything about how his comments related to the Church. I was merely agreeing with Lil Red that likely more priests oppose West for reasons other then the ones you and others are pointing out.
[/quote]
Let me be clear about something: I am not attacking Mr. West; instead, I am merely saying that his presentations are unorthodox.

[tinytherese]

I'd preferrably start off with reading the original TOTB texts and then check out Christopher West's stuff for myself to form an opinion.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 11:51 AM' timestamp='1254160290' post='1973770']
I would agree with this as many more likely oppose West not on what he exactly says, as much as the mere fact he is popularizing TOTB.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
yeah, the priest were really ticked when he was the presenter for the diocesan priest gathering a few years ago. they were mad because he promotes things like priestly celibacy, male-only priesthood, birth control is wrong, etc etc.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='28 September 2009 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1254162904' post='1973819']
+J.M.J.+
yeah, the priest were really ticked when he was the presenter for the diocesan priest gathering a few years ago. they were mad because he promotes things like priestly celibacy, male-only priesthood, birth control is wrong, etc etc.
[/quote]
Let us not forget that there are also faithful priests who oppose the theological distortions present within Mr. West's presentations.