Christopher West Attack?!

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 02:21 PM' timestamp='1254162115' post='1973801']
Let me be clear about something: I am not attacking Mr. West; instead, I am merely saying that his presentations are unorthodox.
[/quote]

Well....we could take up to debate with the dictionary . Anyway that wasn't my point. You say some stuff he says is unorthodox and I am not disagreeing nor agreeing with that. I am merely pointing out that many more disagree with him because he promotes the Church Teaching on contraception, male only priesthood (as pointed out by Lil Red) and not because some things he says are "looking" to be unorthodox.

[quote name='Lil Red' date='28 September 2009 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1254162904' post='1973819']
+J.M.J.+
yeah, the priest were really ticked when he was the presenter for the diocesan priest gathering a few years ago. they were mad because he promotes things like priestly celibacy, male-only priesthood, birth control is wrong, etc etc.
[/quote]
Wouldn't want to promote that.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1254163055' post='1973821']
Let us not forget that there are also faithful priests who oppose the theological distortions present within Mr. West's presentations.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with that. However like it or not, many more likely oppose him because of the orthodoxy he teaches as opposed to the unorthodoxy that "appears" to be coming from him.

The words in quotes are meant to convey that I am not taking a stance on what West is saying to this point as I need to investigate it myself. So if I appear to take a stance in this thread, I'm not. I couldn't immediately think of how to say some stuff in a totally neutral fashion and I am well aware some wording appears to show me defending him.

Edited September 28, 2009 by eagle_eye222001

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1254164141' post='1973839']
I don't disagree with that. However like it or not, many more likely oppose him because of the orthodoxy he teaches as opposed to the unorthodoxy that "appears" to be coming from him.[/quote]
This is an assertion that really cannot be proven. The most that can be said is that dissident and orthodox clergy have come out against Mr. West's presentations on the so-called "theology of the body."

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 12:37 PM' timestamp='1254163055' post='1973821']
Let us not forget that there are also faithful priests who oppose the theological distortions present within Mr. West's presentations.
[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
i'm not disagreeing with that. i'm just saying that there are those who oppose him based on other reasons.

and i'm actually glad that we (as in the Catholic community) are talking about what is in West's presentation, because i never knew that there was anything suspect.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 02:59 PM' timestamp='1254164380' post='1973843']
This is an assertion that really cannot be proven. The most that can be said is that dissident and orthodox clergy have come out against Mr. West's presentations on the so-called "theology of the body."
[/quote]

I didn't present it as fact as I used the word "likely" since the priests who were around in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s were ordained in a liberal leaning time of the Church. It's fairly evident the priests of today are generally more conservative than the ones of forty years ago. I mean, we all have seen the misapplication of Vatican II and such.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1254174494' post='1973941']
I didn't present it as fact as I used the word "likely" since the priests who were around in the 60s, 70s and even early 80s were ordained in a liberal leaning time of the Church. It's fairly evident the priests of today are generally more conservative than the ones of forty years ago. I mean, we all have seen the misapplication of Vatican II and such.
[/quote]
But is it "likely"? The answer to that is a matter of opinion.

[jmjtina]

while reading the TOTB, i found it to be extremely beautiful and dignified.

*totally my own opinion*

Reading some of West's work, makes me think of street talk and it loses some of that dignity JP2 gives it. lol, of course West can't do it exactly like the Pope, but the real loss is the comprehension of the beauty and love God has for us.

IMHO, this is the real loss. Most Catholic couples I know who liked West used him as an index for what could I or could not do within a marriage without stopping to think about the whole picture. Granted, not all Catholic couples, but most.

I honestly don't think we should dumb it down. Why not help the laity to understand what it truly means? There seems to be a real hunger for it now. At least in my diocese.

and Jess, I totally agree. I like that we are discussing this.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1254174981' post='1973944']
But is it "likely"? The answer to that is a matter of opinion.
[/quote]

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/timespoll/la-940221priestpoll,0,2971328.story?page=1


http://www.ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/CONSELIB.TXT

In which case, I say the same to you.


[quote name='Apotheoun' date='28 September 2009 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1254111767' post='1973576']
This is just my opinion, but I consider Mr. West's theories to be unorthodox.
[/quote]

[Apotheoun]

Yeah, we have both expressed divergent opinions, but if you read the two threads I linked to you can see why I hold the opinion I do about Mr. West's teaching.

Now as far as the other issue is concerned, i.e., whether priests oppose Mr. West for his position on celibacy, etc., that is simply an opinion which cannot be proven because it is based upon a generalization.

[Laudate_Dominum]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSST!!!!!!!!

To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!

[i]He piled upon the whale's white hump the sum of all the general rage and hate felt by his whole race from Adam down; and then, as if his chest had been a mortar, he burst his hot heart's shell upon it.[/i]

[Apotheoun]

L_D appears to be suffering from a Star Trek fixation tonight.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 September 2009 - 01:57 AM' timestamp='1254203850' post='1974189']
L_D appears to be suffering from a Star Trek fixation tonight.
[/quote]
Oh, I get by with a little help from my friends brother. I reach, I really do. No is the saddest experience you'll ever know. All together we can get it, together; get it together, together we can get it together, that's all I'm sayin.

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='28 September 2009 - 02:55 PM' timestamp='1254164141' post='1973839']
Well....we could take up to debate with the dictionary . Anyway that wasn't my point. You say some stuff he says is unorthodox and I am not disagreeing nor agreeing with that. I am merely pointing out that many more disagree with him because he promotes the Church Teaching on contraception, male only priesthood (as pointed out by Lil Red) and not because some things he says are "looking" to be unorthodox.


Wouldn't want to promote that.



I don't disagree with that. However like it or not, many more likely oppose him because of the orthodoxy he teaches as opposed to the unorthodoxy that "appears" to be coming from him.

The words in quotes are meant to convey that I am not taking a stance on what West is saying to this point as I need to investigate it myself. So if I appear to take a stance in this thread, I'm not. I couldn't immediately think of how to say some stuff in a totally neutral fashion and I am well aware some wording appears to show me defending him.
[/quote]

While this might be the case for you, I don't think I can agree.

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='29 September 2009 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1254203328' post='1974183']
Yeah, we have both expressed divergent opinions, but if you read the two threads I linked to you can see why I hold the opinion I do about Mr. West's teaching. [/quote]

As I have said before, I am not debating you on the orthodoxy or unorthodoxy of West's presentation and I am not in this thread attempting to disclaim what you claim about it so I am unsure why you continually bring it up.

[quote]Now as far as the other issue is concerned, i.e., whether priests oppose Mr. West for his position on celibacy, etc., that is simply an opinion which cannot be proven because it is based upon a generalization.
[/quote]

As it is a generalization that the opinion that many priests oppose West because of the claimed unorthodoxy of his teachings as opposed to just bringing up TOTB in general.

[Brian Killian]

[quote name='jswranch' date='27 September 2009 - 07:57 PM' timestamp='1254092267' post='1973462']
[url="http://skellmeyer.blogspot.com/2009/09/chris-and-cult.html"]Recently a Catholic speaker in my area has lead a strong critique against Christopher West[/url]. In the past I have held this local guy in very high esteem. It seems to be a lot of twisting of words out of context. Feels like I am debating a Fundi hell bent on convincing me I worship Mary.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

You are correct, Skellmeyer is twisting words out of context. I am not impressed with Skellmeyer, he is not very balanced on this subject. I have no special interest in defending West, but this guy doesn't seem capable of giving him a fair hearing. There are several warning flags that come up when I read his articles. For one thing, real apologists, theologians, scholars, etc. do not throw around the word 'heresy' so easily and loosely as Skellmeyer does, let alone accuse people (including bishops) of being heretics, or 'spewing stinking heresy'. If heresy was that easy to identify we would not need any theologians, or the CDF for that matter. But Skellmeyer, who doesn't strike me as being very competent on this subject, doesn't hesitate to label people heretics or their writings as heresy. This is not the mark of a professional. Another red flag is his tone, which is often mean-spirited, accusatory and lacks charity. He seems eager to find things wrong and this leads him to badly misinterpret what people say to make it easier to criticize. He makes things fit into his preconceptions. He also resorts to dirty arguments and innuendo.

I'm not sure what his problem is: pride? professional jealousy? Whatever it is, I would be wary of this guy.

[Laudate_Dominum]

+1