Validity Of Certain Sacraments

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 September 2009 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1254366157' post='1975379']
As I am sure you are aware, there are two versions of St. Cyprian's [i]De Unitate Catholicae Ecclesiae[/i], and both are authentic.

St. Cyprian held that grace was intrinsically connected to the Church, and so heretics cannot celebrate the holy mysteries.
[/quote]

Both versions seem clearly, thoroughly attached to Peter's office as a vital center of unity. I'm glad you've made me think of Cyprian's differences with Augustine on this issue. I suppose I subconsciously wrote off Cyprian in favor of Augustine because the Donatists used him in their defense (stupid, I know).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='01 October 2009 - 05:28 AM' timestamp='1254396523' post='1975515']
Both versions seem clearly, thoroughly attached to Peter's office as a vital center of unity.[/quote]
Yes, but the second version, as revised by St. Cyprian himself, makes it clear that he sees all bishops as holding St. Peter's office.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='01 October 2009 - 05:28 AM' timestamp='1254396523' post='1975515']
I'm glad you've made me think of Cyprian's differences with Augustine on this issue. I suppose I subconsciously wrote off Cyprian in favor of Augustine because the Donatists used him in their defense (stupid, I know).[/quote]
The Eastern Church's were never really influenced by St. Augustine's theology. In fact, the bishop of Hippo's writings were not translated into Greek until the mid to late 14th century.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 September 2009 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1254353755' post='1975181']
Interestingly, some people think that simply referring to Denzinger trumps the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.[/quote]

Even more interestingly, some people think that their interpretation of a CDF document trups the teachigns of an ecumenical council of the Universal Church.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='30 September 2009 - 06:35 PM' timestamp='1254353755' post='1975181']
Clearly, the rejection of Mormon baptism by the Catholic Church is based upon the Mormon Church's, and by extension the Mormon minister's, lack of Trinitarian faith. So even though a Mormon has general intention to wash away sin through baptism, the theological errors present within his "faith" specifically vitiate that desire, because the desire itself is motivated by a heretical tritheistic / polytheistic theology. Thus, the theological errors of Mormonism make Mormon baptism invalid.
[/quote]

The fact that a pagan, according to an ecumenical council, can baptize validly means that one does not have to belive in the Trinity to baptize validly.

As long as the person baptizing intends to do what the Church does, and thus means the words "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" as the Church means them, he can baptize validly. Obviously Mormons do not mean "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" as the Church intends those words.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='30 September 2009 - 09:26 PM' timestamp='1254363984' post='1975352']
I think that Florence had in mind the possibility of a kindhearted pagan who, at a dieing person's request, baptizes with the intent to do what the Church does.[/quote]

I would agree with that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 October 2009 - 12:31 PM' timestamp='1254421877' post='1975715']
The fact that a pagan, according to an ecumenical council, can baptize validly means that one does not have to belive in the Trinity to baptize validly.[/quote]
Evidently the CDF has not read as much on this issue as you have.

Mormon baptism is held to be invalid because Mormons hold a position on the Trinity that is clearly heretical.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 October 2009 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1254422035' post='1975724']
Evidently the CDF has not read as much on this issue as you have.

Mormon baptism is held to be invalid because Mormons hold a position on the Trinity that is clearly heretical.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure that the CDF had no intention of contradicting the Council of Florence.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 October 2009 - 12:36 PM' timestamp='1254422171' post='1975728']
I'm pretty sure that the CDF had no intention of contradicting the Council of Florence.
[/quote]
Wow, not only are you better informed than the CDF, but now you even have access to the internal workings of the congregation's proceedings.

You can always write to the CDF in order to get a clarification.

Edited October 1, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 October 2009 - 01:39 PM' timestamp='1254422364' post='1975731']
Wow, not only are you better informed than the CDF, but now you even have access to the internal workings of the congregation's proceedings.

You can always write to the CDF in order to get a clarification.
[/quote]

Maybe I will.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 October 2009 - 12:41 PM' timestamp='1254422514' post='1975740']
Maybe I will.
[/quote]
That would be a good idea.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='30 September 2009 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1254363984' post='1975352']
. . . Mormons - like Evangelicals - have an intention motivated by error ("Jesus recommended baptism only as a symbolic witness") with serious, public repudiations of the Church's intent intimately involved with the ritual. What seems most problematic to me is that the Mormon, like the "Low-Protestant", defines baptism as something fundamentally different than the Catholic Church or "High-Protestant". For us, baptism is a soteriological sacrament of God; for them, baptism is a symbolic act of Man. In other words, the Evangelical baptism cannot properly be called a baptism at all because it redefines it, calling their apple by the name of our orange.[/quote]
This is well stated. A man's theology influences his intentional activity.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 October 2009 - 01:43 PM' timestamp='1254422625' post='1975746']
That would be a good idea.
[/quote]

I doubt that the CDF will claim to contradict the Council of Florence.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='01 October 2009 - 12:52 PM' timestamp='1254423175' post='1975761']
I doubt that the CDF will claim to contradict the Council of Florence.
[/quote]
You will not know until you write to them, but regardless they will explain to you why the heretical nature of Mormon faith prevents the valid celebration of the mystery of baptism.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='01 October 2009 - 03:06 PM' timestamp='1254423976' post='1975768']
You will not know until you write to them, but regardless they will explain to you why the heretical nature of Mormon faith prevents the valid celebration of the mystery of baptism.
[/quote]

And the nature of Protestant faith is not heretical?

[Ziggamafu]

I need to figure out how to act on these concerns of mine. If the liberal position is not correct (or merely not trustworthy) it would seem that a TON of Catholic need conditional baptisms. But if the liberal position is correct, then raising these concerns could be dangerously scandalous. Rock|Me|Hard Place.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 07:10 AM' timestamp='1254489035' post='1976180']
And the nature of Protestant faith is not heretical?
[/quote]
Yes, it is heretical.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 07:15 AM' timestamp='1254489330' post='1976182']
I need to figure out how to act on these concerns of mine. If the liberal position is not correct (or merely not trustworthy) it would seem that a TON of Catholic need conditional baptisms. But if the liberal position is correct, then raising these concerns could be dangerously scandalous. Rock|Me|Hard Place.
[/quote]
You're not really in a position to do anything about the situation. In the East there is the concept of [i]economia[/i], which is sometimes invoked - after a man comes to the Church - in order to supply for any defect in the "mysteries" of the heretics, but I am not sure if that concept exists in the West.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 09:33 AM' timestamp='1254490416' post='1976186']
You're not really in a position to do anything about the situation. In the East there is the concept of [i]economia[/i], which is sometimes invoked - after a man comes to the Church - in order to supply for any defect in the "mysteries" of the heretics, but I am not sure if that concept exists in the West.
[/quote]

I'm really talking about the idea of myself being conditionally baptized and advising as much for my wife and a friend.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1254492354' post='1976192']
I'm really talking about the idea of myself being conditionally baptized and advising as much for my wife and a friend.
[/quote]
I suppose that you can ask for that to be done.

[Ziggamafu]

Well of course I can. But is it wise or even necessary? If I do it then I am binding myself in conscience to advise certain friends and family to do the same. And that could be scandalous.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1254499292' post='1976237']
Well of course I can. But is it wise or even necessary?[/quote]
If it allays your own doubts about your Protestant "baptism" it is worthwhile.

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='02 October 2009 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1254499292' post='1976237']
If I do it then I am binding myself in conscience to advise certain friends and family to do the same. And that could be scandalous.[/quote]
No, you are merely binding yourself to telling them about your case, but you really are not in a position of ecclesial authority to advise anyone about the status of the sacraments they have received. Traditionally that is the role of the bishop.