Validity Of Certain Sacraments

[Resurrexi]

In case this helps...

"Whether, in judging matrimonial cases, baptism conferred in the sects of the Disciples of Christ, the Presbyterians, Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, when the necessary matter and form have been used, is to be presumed as invalid because of the lack of the required intention in the minister of doing what the Church does, or what Christ instituted; or whether it is to be presumed as valid unless in a particular case it is proven to the contrary." The reply: In the negative to the first part; in the affirmative to the second." (Response of the Holy Office under Pope Pius XII on 28 December 1949: Denzinger-Schonmetzer 3865)

Edited October 2, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

Resurrexi,

The text you quoted - at least based on Zigga's many posts in this thread - apparently has not helped to remove his doubts, because I have a feeling that he has read the texts you are quoting. Moreover, a quasi-Protestant reliance on a book (in this particular case Denzinger instead of the Bible) evidently is not enough for him, although it may work for you. The solution for Zigga - as I see it - is to consult his bishop (obviously by approaching his parish priest) in order to explain his reasons for doubting the Protestant "baptism" he received, so that an authoritative judgment can be issued.

I see nothing wrong with Zigga doing this, and - in fact - it is his right to approach the local bishop for an authoritative decision on the matter.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 03:47 PM' timestamp='1254516442' post='1976394']
Resurrexi,

The text you quoted - at least based on Zigga's many posts in this thread - apparently has not helped to remove his doubts, because I have a feeling that he has read the texts you are quoting. Moreover, a quasi-Protestant reliance on a book (in this particular case Denzinger instead of the Bible) evidently is not enough for him, although it may work for you. The solution for Zigga - as I see it - is to consult his bishop (obviously by approaching his parish priest) in order to explain his reasons for doubting the Protestant "baptism" he received, so that an authoritative judgment can be issued.

I see nothing wrong with Zigga doing this, and - in fact - it is his right to approach the local bishop for an authoritative decision on the matter.
[/quote]

It is so Quasi-Protestant to rely on what the teaching authority of the Church has decided in the past...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 October 2009 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1254516591' post='1976398']
It is so Quasi-Protestant to rely on what the teaching authority of the Church has decided in the past...
[/quote]
No, it is quasi-Protestant to rely on a book (in this case Denzinger), but I wholeheartedly encourage Zigga to approach the proper Church authorities (i.e., the local bishop) so that he can receive an authoritative judgment.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1254516753' post='1976402']
No, it is quasi-Protestant to rely on a book (in this case Denzinger), but I wholeheartedly encourage Zigga to approach the proper Church authorities (i.e., the local bishop) so that he can receive an authoritative judgment.
[/quote]

Denzinger is merely a collection of magisterial documents. I guess since you constantly reference the writings of the Eastern Fathers, which are conveniently collected in Patrologia Graeca, I could say that you are relying on a book in a quasi-Protestant manner.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 October 2009 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1254516825' post='1976403']
Denzinger is merely a collection of magisterial documents. I guess since you constantly reference the writings of the Eastern Fathers, which are conveniently collected in Patrologia Graeca, I could say that you are relying on a book in a quasi-Protestant manner.
[/quote]
Yes, I know that Denzinger is a collection of texts, which is why I called your reliance upon it quasi-Protestant.

Christianity is not a religion of a book (not of the Bible, or Denzinger, or the Patrologia Graeca or Latina), and this is confirmed by what St. Bernard said in one of his homilies, for as he put it: Christian faith is not founded upon " . . . a mute and written word traced with dumb signs on lifeless parchment, but [upon] a living and incarnate Word." The whole point of the incarnation was to bring man into contact with the living Word of God made flesh.

I should not have to tell you this, but a book cannot settle a dispute, nor can it give a judgment, because it is a dumb thing; and that is why the Church has always held that an authoritative judgment requires a living teacher.

Zigga has the right to approach the living Church authorities in his eparchy for a binding decision.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1254518344' post='1976419']
Yes, I know that Denzinger is a collection of texts, which is why I called your reliance upon it quasi-Protestant.

Christianity is not a religion of a book (not of the Bible or Denzinger), and this is confirmed by what St. Bernard said in one of his homilies, for as he put it: Christian faith is not founded upon " . . . a mute and written word traced with dumb signs on lifeless parchment, but [upon] a living and incarnate Word." The whole point of the incarnation was to bring man into contact with the living Word of God made flesh.

I should not have to tell you this, but a book cannot settle a dispute, nor can it give a judgment, because it is a dumb thing; and that is why the Church has always held that an authoritative judgment requires a living teacher. [/quote]

I text indeed can indeed settle a dispute, or rather the authority of him who proclaimed the text can settle a dispute. Though the Fathers of the Second Council of Nicaea are all dead their dogmatic declaration on icons is equally binding today as it was more than 1500 years ago.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 04:19 PM' timestamp='1254518344' post='1976419']
Zigga has the right to approach the living Church authorities in his eparchy for a binding decision.
[/quote]

I am pretty sure that, since Zigga is a Latin Catholic, that would be called a diocese. I wouldn't call and Eastern Catholic eparchy a diocese, so you probably shouldn't call a Western diocese an eparchy.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 October 2009 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1254518817' post='1976422']
I text indeed can indeed settle a dispute, or rather the authority of him who proclaimed the text can settle a dispute. Though the Fathers of the Second Council of Nicaea are all dead their dogmatic declaration on icons is equally binding today as it was more than 1500 years ago.
[/quote]
I must admit that I once thought as you do, but praise God I grew out of it. Books are a wonderful thing, but they are just that "things." Things can be helpful, but they do not make decisions, and they cannot take into account the particulars of a given case, which is why one always needs living authorities.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 04:29 PM' timestamp='1254518976' post='1976423']
I must admit that I once thought as you do, but praise God I grew out of it. Books are a wonderful thing, but they are just that "things." Things can be helpful, but they do not make decisions, and they cannot take into account the particulars of a given case, which is why one always needs living authorities.
[/quote]

I never denied the necessity of living ecclesiastical authority.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='02 October 2009 - 03:30 PM' timestamp='1254519043' post='1976424']
I never denied the necessity of living ecclesiastical authority.
[/quote]
Then why continue posting. Zigga should approach the proper Church authorities, who have been empowered by Christ to make a decision.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1254519122' post='1976425']
Then why continue posting. Zigga should approach the proper Church authorities, who have been empowered by Christ to make a decision.
[/quote]

For the same reason that you continue posting.

[Apotheoun]

Ask your book if you should keep posting, and wait patiently for an answer before posting again.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='02 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1254519366' post='1976429']
Ask your book if you should keep posting, and wait patiently for an answer before posting again.
[/quote]

So are you going to an Byzantine Mass this Sunday?

Edited October 2, 2009 by Resurrexi