Hell Fire

[OraProMe]

Do you believe that there is actually fire in Hell? To me fire and torture seem like completely human concepts of punishment for sin, not God's idea.

[Luigi]

I agree with you. Jesus did mention weeds being gathered and cast into the fire, but that's the only related evidence. A number of the Renaissance artists painted their own conceptions of hell, which didn't always include fire - and of course, artists aren't theologians! Anyway - I think you're right - fire & torture is a human image of what hell might be like.

[Theologian in Training]

Mt 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the [b]eternal fire[/b].

Mt 25:41
Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the [b]eternal fire[/b] prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jesus thought so

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='02 October 2009 - 11:36 PM' timestamp='1254540992' post='1976560']
Do you believe that there is actually fire in Hell? To me fire and torture seem like completely human concepts of punishment for sin, not God's idea.
[/quote]
The image of fire (which may be understood quite literally) describes the pain of sense which is one aspect of the torments that damned souls experience in hell. The primary mode of suffering is the spiritual pain of loss, but the suffering of hell involves the whole person and thus includes the body. It is presumably like being eternally consumed in torments that never fade. And yet it is said that the physical suffering is nothing compared to the interior suffering.

You may find this Q&A answer from five years ago to be interesting: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=40955

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='03 October 2009 - 12:12 AM' timestamp='1254543133' post='1976579']
Mt 18:8
And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to enter life maimed or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the [b]eternal fire[/b].

Mt 25:41
Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the [b]eternal fire[/b] prepared for the devil and his angels;

Jesus thought so
[/quote]

The bible was written by humans, humans who would regard eternal fire as pretty horrible. I don't see why we project our own concepts onto God. The same goes for the idea of a hierarchy of angels in heaven.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='03 October 2009 - 12:23 AM' timestamp='1254543816' post='1976581']
The image of fire (which may be understood quite literally) describes the pain of sense which is one aspect of the torments that damned souls experience in hell. The primary mode of suffering is the spiritual pain of loss, but the suffering of hell involves the whole person and thus includes the body. It is presumably like being eternally consumed in torments that never fade. And yet it is said that the physical suffering is nothing compared to the interior suffering.

You may find this Q&A answer from five years ago to be interesting: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=40955
[/quote]
I think the idea of torment being "spiritual loss" is a great one. Souls are not physical and don't have any of the senses our bodies do so how could they feel physical pain (atleast before the final judgment)?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='03 October 2009 - 02:13 AM' timestamp='1254546795' post='1976604']
I think the idea of torment being "spiritual loss" is a great one. Souls are not physical and don't have any of the senses our bodies do so how could they feel physical pain (atleast before the final judgment)?
[/quote]

We read scripture with a literal eye to what the principle author intended as well as a symbolic one. In the Beloved's vision of heaven in Revelation, as well as most saints with a vision of heaven after him, we know that those angels closest to God burn with love for him. We can only imagine how brightly Lucifer burned with God's love before his fall. Lucifer now burns sans God, and those in hell also burn, but without God's love. This turns sheer ecstatic joy into eternal burning rage and weeping. I believe this fire is on a whole other level outside of the combustion of organic compounds at a high enough temperature, but one that is not only interior.

[MIKolbe]

what exactly is brimstone?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='03 October 2009 - 02:22 PM' timestamp='1254576171' post='1976672']
what exactly is brimstone?
[/quote]
Sulfur, I think.

[Innocent]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='03 October 2009 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1254546707' post='1976603']
The bible was written by humans, humans who would regard eternal fire as pretty horrible. I don't see why we project our own concepts onto God. The same goes for the idea of a hierarchy of angels in heaven.
[/quote]

Two years ago, I read a book titled [i]The Christ of Catholicism[/i] written by Dom Aelred Graham. I don't have it with me right now where I'm staying and so I'm sorry I'm unable to give you the correct page number reference, but that was the book where I first learnt of the term [i]analogia entis[/i]. The point being made was that since creatures bear some resemblance, or an analogy of being, to God, we can say something positive about God by using the analogy of creatures, inspite of the fact that there is greater dissimilarity than similarity between God and creatures and thus all such analogies will necessarily be very imperfect.

Perhaps that's the reason why we find it easy to use human concepts to speak of God and immaterial creatures?

Here are some descriptions of the [i]analogia entis[/i] from some Catholic sites and blogs. They explain it much better than I did above.

[quote][b]Content of Revelation: the triune God and His plan of salvation.
[/b]
* 1. Personal: God & his salvific will for us. Primarily personal rather than propositional (as for some neo-Scholastics). DV 2, 6; CCC 51
o a. Mysterious: intelligible but unfathomable; transcendence. DV 6;
............
[b] o b. Via Negativa: it is easier to say what God is not than what he is
o c. Via Eminentiae: analogia entis (the analogy of being). The only way we can say something positive about God who can never be adequately described or defined
* 2. Understood by way of Analogy of Being: corollary of mystery (CCC 40-43). (Analogia entis)
o a. All creatures bear resemblance to God. From perfections of creatures to some real positive knowledge of God.
o b. Limitations of the human mind & speech; analogies limp
o c. Greater dissimilarity than similarity. CCC 43. Negative theology, via negativa. CF 320 4th Lateran Council: "For between creator and creature no similitude can be expressed without implying a greater dissimilitude."
[/b]

[/quote][url="http://home.comcast.net/~icuweb/c03602.htm"]SOURCE[/url]


[quote]As for “analogia entis,” that is the principle of the “analogy of being.” It’s the point that the human person is both like and radically different from God — but because there is this analogy, the positive is not to be distrusted just because it is human, though it is understood, because of the difference, that it is limited and not unlimited in power. Hence why it is the mediating balance — it points to our condition as good, but limited;[/quote][url="http://the-american-catholic.com/2009/08/30/eschaton-si-immanent-no/"]SOURCE[/url]


[quote]What Hans Urs von Balthasar said in his criticism of Karl Barth is valid here. Here the question of the analogia entis is important. This is the teaching that there is a relationship between God and creation, and that an analogy between God and humanity can be made—the similarity between the two allows for rational, natural theology to form a proper (though deficient) conception of God. It also means that there must be something within humanity which is positive. The difference between the two forever makes sure that there is no identification between God and creation. For Barth, the analogia entis was “the doctrine of the Anti-Christ” because it gave too positive a value to humanity. Indeed for Barth, this was the foundational difference between Catholicism and Protestantism: Catholicism can find positive value in the world through the analogia entis, while Protestants think any such value is a Satanic assertion trying to bridge the gulf between creation and God[/quote][url="http://vox-nova.com/2009/09/06/the-eschaton-has-been-immanentized-iv-the-world-is-not-enough/"]SOURCE[/url]

Another article, from a Protestant blog: [url="http://millinerd.com/2006/12/whos-afraid-of-analogia-entis.html"]Who's Afraid of the Analogia Entis?[/url]

Edited October 3, 2009 by Innocent

[Jaime]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='03 October 2009 - 09:22 AM' timestamp='1254576171' post='1976672']
what exactly is brimstone?
[/quote]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPNzG95i2k8[/media]

[homeschoolmom]

There was no, "Fill it to the rim with Brim."

[rkwright]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='03 October 2009 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1254546707' post='1976603']
The bible was written by humans, humans who would regard eternal fire as pretty horrible. I don't see why we project our own concepts onto God. The same goes for the idea of a hierarchy of angels in heaven.
[/quote]

The Bible says it explicitly as Father has pointed out. Its not just the Bible, its actually the words of Christ. I'm cautious about straying from the literal truth unless there is a good reason (ie. Jesus "explains" it as a parable, it doesn't make sense with the world around us). I don't know any evidence that hell isn't fire and Jesus says it is...

Your argument could be run against all sorts of Biblical concepts. Is the Eucharist really Christ or just humans projecting their own concepts onto God?

[Slappo]

[quote name='rkwright' date='03 October 2009 - 07:54 AM' timestamp='1254581655' post='1976692']
The Bible says it explicitly as Father has pointed out. Its not just the Bible, its actually the words of Christ. I'm cautious about straying from the literal truth unless there is a good reason (ie. Jesus "explains" it as a parable, it doesn't make sense with the world around us). I don't know any evidence that hell isn't fire and Jesus says it is...

Your argument could be run against all sorts of Biblical concepts. Is the Eucharist really Christ or just humans projecting their own concepts onto God?
[/quote]


I would pose that fire gives us an idea of something chaotic, chaos. Fire isn't normally seen as orderly. Heaven is order and hell is chaos. Fire gives us that sense. Whether that means there are raging fires sweeping through hell like the fires we know through science, or metaphorical we don't know. We also use fire for things like saying "I'm on fire for Christ!" Here fire is portrayed as good. I don't think Jesus was intending that in hell we will be on fire as used in my above sentence!

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

There will be a spiritual tormenting fire but there also will be a physical torment aswell because we DO believe in the resurection of the dead and the Final Judgement. And fire is about as painfull as it gets physically.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='MIkolbe' date='03 October 2009 - 07:22 AM' timestamp='1254576171' post='1976672']
what exactly is brimstone?
[/quote]
Brimstone is the English translation of the Greek word "θείου," the root meaning of which is "divinity."

[perfectunion33]

First we must keep in mind that after the first judgement we will all be reunited with our bodies. One could, but does not have to, think that just as there will be a spiritual suffering in hell due to separation from God, that there will also be a suffering reserved for the flesh as well due to it's corruption, which is more than likely by fire.

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='03 October 2009 - 02:11 AM' timestamp='1254546707' post='1976603']
The bible was written by humans, humans who would regard eternal fire as pretty horrible. I don't see why we project our own concepts onto God. The same goes for the idea of a hierarchy of angels in heaven.
[/quote]

Humans writing about what Jesus said. Jesus said it, not them. He was the one that gave them the idea of eternal fire, not them putting words in His mouth, hence the quote marks.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' date='03 October 2009 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1254608283' post='1976869']
Humans writing about what Jesus said. Jesus said it, not them. He was the one that gave them the idea of eternal fire, not them putting words in His mouth, hence the quote marks.
[/quote]

How can our souls, which are immaterial and lack any of the five senses, feel physical pain?

[Sternhauser]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"][quote name='perfectunion33' date='03 October 2009 - 04:39 PM' timestamp='1254602366' post='1976844']
[/size][/font][font="Tahoma"][size="2"][font="Arial"]First we must keep in mind that after the first judgement we will all be reunited with our bodies. One could, but does not have to, think that just as there will be a spiritual suffering in hell due to separation from God, that there will also be a suffering reserved for the flesh as well due to it's corruption, which is more than likely by fire.[/font]
[/quote]
[font="Arial"]
I think one ought to believe that there will be physical suffering in hell.

[/font][/size][/font][font="Arial"]Matthew 10:28 "And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"Destroying the body" sounds like a pretty unpleasant process.

~Sternhauser[/font]

Edited October 4, 2009 by Sternhauser