Original Sin

[pat22]

So the first poeple were created by god. They had a perfect life, the animals obeyed them, no sickness, ECT... but they sinned and all that went away, then god promised a savior.

so after jesus came why didn't we get all that back?

why did the desendents(such as us) of the first poeple have to pay for their ansestors crimes?

and how come they didn't ever get a chance to re-earn all that was lost?


please dont quote the CCC or something like that unless its CONVINCING arguement or beleivable.

i need logic arguements, not faith ones.

[HisChildForever]

Even though Adam and Eve were created perfect and sinless, they were still created with the ability to choose - they were both capable of either obeying or disobeying God. We know that if we sin, we disobey God, and we will be punished for our disobedience (that punishment can come in many different forms, mind you). Adam and Eve disobeyed God, therefore introducing sin into the world. While Christ took those sins upon Himself and died for the sake of our salvation, He did not take away our ability to say "yes" or "no" to Him. In fact, we can argue that He made it easier to say "yes" because God came down to earth and made Himself fully known to us.

[HisChildForever]

I want to focus on more specific questions now.

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1255028866' post='1981047']
why did the desendents(such as us) of the first poeple have to pay for their ansestors crimes?

and how come they didn't ever get a chance to re-earn all that was lost?
[/quote]

Even though we did not commit the same sin Adam and Eve committed, the fact is that they introduced sin into the world and by doing so, changed the world and humanity. After we sin, we ask God for forgiveness - or, for more serious sins, we go to Confession - and our souls are cleansed. However, just because we are free of the sin[s] committed, does not mean that the sin never existed or never hurt anyone else. That is why we cannot "re-earn" Eden. Sin can and will be forgiven if we ask for forgiveness with a contrite heart, but the "effects" of our sin still lingers.

Edited October 8, 2009 by HisChildForever

[pat22]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 03:43 PM' timestamp='1255030985' post='1981080']
I want to focus on more specific questions now.



Even though we did not commit the same sin Adam and Eve committed, the fact is that they introduced sin into the world and by doing so, changed the world and humanity. After we sin, we ask God for forgiveness - or, for more serious sins, we go to Confession - and our souls are cleansed. However, just because we are free of the sin[s] committed, does not mean that the sin never existed or never hurt anyone else. That is why we cannot "re-earn" Eden. Sin can and will be forgiven if we ask for forgiveness with a contrite heart, but the "effects" of our sin still lingers.
[/quote]



i resent that

i should get a chance to choose for myself.

we dont have free will if we never get to choose between good and evil. if we are born with sin.... well... whats totally contradictory. how can you beleive that?

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:50 PM' timestamp='1255031425' post='1981088']
i should get a chance to choose for myself. [/quote]

You [i]do[/i] have that chance. We all do.

[quote] we dont have free will if we never get to choose between good and evil. if we are born with sin.... well... whats totally contradictory. how can you beleive that?
[/quote]

We are born with Original Sin - you can say that we "inherited" Original Sin from Adam and Eve, our ancestors. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of this sin. Original Sin is not the same thing as regular sin (a Church Scholar can explain this one to you). And whether an individual receives Baptism or not, they still can choose between good and evil.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1255031803' post='1981097']
You [i]do[/i] have that chance. We all do.



We are born with Original Sin - you can say that we "inherited" Original Sin from Adam and Eve, our ancestors. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of this sin. Original Sin is not the same thing as regular sin (a Church Scholar can explain this one to you). And whether an individual receives Baptism or not, they still can choose between good and evil.
[/quote]
It's somewhat misleading to say that we inherited sin though. We inherited the effects of sin, but sin itself is personal. We inherited a world corrupted by Adam's and Eve's sin, which has made us in a disordered way inclined towards personal sin of our own, but be did not inherit personal sin of an ancestor.

At least I am pretty sure that's a more accurate explanation.

Sorry, don't want to step on your toes. It's one thing I've been really focussing on understanding lately, and while I'm still not particularly good by any stretch of the imagination, I think I've got a rudimentary grasp of it.

[JimR-OCDS]

>[i]i should get a chance to choose for myself
[/i]
You do choose for yourself.

>[i]we dont have free will if we never get to choose between good and evil. if we are born with >sin.... well... whats totally contradictory. how can you beleive that?
[/i]

You can choose between good and evil.

However, what we lack because of our fallen nature, is the ability to choose only good.

Jim

Edited October 8, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[pat22]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1255031803' post='1981097']
You [i]do[/i] have that chance. We all do.



We are born with Original Sin - you can say that we "inherited" Original Sin from Adam and Eve, our ancestors. Through Baptism, we are cleansed of this sin. Original Sin is not the same thing as regular sin (a Church Scholar can explain this one to you). And whether an individual receives Baptism or not, they still can choose between good and evil.
[/quote]

but i DONT have the same choice as adam and eve. i was born into there damnation. i was born into a world of suffering

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1255033166' post='1981117']
but i DONT have the same choice as adam and eve. i was born into there damnation. i was born into a world of suffering
[/quote]




You were born into a world of suffering, but depending on your choice, you can be brought into a world of eternal joy and happiness.

Again, the choice is yours.

Jim

Edited October 8, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1255033166' post='1981117']
but i DONT have the same choice as adam and eve. i was born into there damnation. i was born into a world of suffering
[/quote]
You were born into a corrupted world, but it's always been your choice whether or not to participate in any sort of sin. Nobody is forced to sin, it's just that everybody freely chooses to do so. Except Mary. and Jesus.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 04:14 PM' timestamp='1255032882' post='1981110']
It's somewhat misleading to say that we inherited sin though. We inherited the effects of sin, but sin itself is personal. We inherited a world corrupted by Adam's and Eve's sin, which has made us in a disordered way inclined towards personal sin of our own, but be did not inherit personal sin of an ancestor.

At least I am pretty sure that's a more accurate explanation.

[/quote]

I think that's a more accurate explanation of sin, but not Original Sin. While we didn't inherit the particular sin Adam and Eve committed, that first sin has "stained" us in some way. I know there's a term for the sin we commit by choice (the term distinguishes between that and Original Sin), but I can't think of it.

[Apotheoun]

I do not believe that anyone is born sinful.

Adam, by his sin, made himself and all his descendants mortal, but mortality is not a punishment of God; instead, it is simply the consequence of Adam's failure, as the head of the human family, to rise to divine status through grace.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1255033792' post='1981137']
I think that's a more accurate explanation of sin, but not Original Sin. While we didn't inherit the particular sin Adam and Eve committed, that first sin has "stained" us in some way. I know there's a term for the sin we commit by choice (the term distinguishes between that and Original Sin), but I can't think of it.
[/quote]
That's where it's misleading though, in the term itself.
Original sin refers to the corruption that the sin of our first parents brought into the world. The disordering of nature, that draws us towards sin, but in and of itself it is not sin.
At least that's how I understand it so far.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='08 October 2009 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1255034310' post='1981153']
I do not believe that anyone is born sinful.
[/quote]
Tell that to some parents I've known.

[pat22]

my point is that the first poeple were born into a perfect world and never HAD to know pain or suffering. we are never even given that choice. where is the mercy in having to live a life of suffering for someone else's wrong doings? thats very far from just

[rkwright]

A good analogy might be an inherited disease. People who are born with a disease didn't "choose" it - they are just born with it, perhaps because of the fault of their parents. Or think of a war. Because of the choice of one man (a leader) many will die (a nation who fights under them). The soldiers did not choose war, but they certainly bear the effects of the fighting. In the same sense all of humanity bears the burden of Adam's sin. We all die, a consequence of Adam's sin. We all have a tendency to sin, a consequence of Adam's original sin. This we all agree on. The West would also say that we are all in some sense share in the guilt of Adam's original sin. cf. Apo's post.

[rkwright]

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1255034702' post='1981163']
my point is that the first poeple were born into a perfect world and never HAD to know pain or suffering. we are never even given that choice. where is the mercy in having to live a life of suffering for someone else's wrong doings? thats very far from just
[/quote]
I would argue they knew much more pain and suffering. They knew what they lost. We don't really know what they lost.

Edited October 8, 2009 by rkwright

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1255032882' post='1981110']
It's somewhat misleading to say that we inherited sin though.
[/quote]

The Fathers of the Council of Trent didn't think so.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1255034702' post='1981163']
my point is that the first poeple were born into a perfect world and never HAD to know pain or suffering. we are never even given that choice. where is the mercy in having to live a life of suffering for someone else's wrong doings? thats very far from just
[/quote]
I do not agree. Adam and Eve, according to St. Irenaeus, were not created perfect; rather, they were created like children with the potential, i.e., through virtuous activity, to become perfect. Sadly, they failed in their task, and the natural outcome was death, but with the incarnation that situation has been spiritually reversed, and each one of us born mortal in Adam has become immortal in Christ, and through the process of [i]theosis[/i] we can achieve the bliss of heaven.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Apotheoun

[rkwright]

For Nihil and His Child

From Trent
http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/TRENT5.HTM
[quote]2. If anyone asserts that the transgression of Adam injured him alone and not his posterity,[7] and that the holiness and justice which he received from God, which he lost, he lost for himself alone and not for us also; or that he, being defiled by the sin of disobedience, [b]has transfused only death and the pains of the body into the whole human race, but not sin also, which is the death of the soul[/b], let him be anathema, since he contradicts the Apostle who says:
By one man sin entered into the world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned.[8]

3. [b]If anyone asserts that this sin of Adam, which in its origin is one, and by propagation, not by imitation, transfused into all,[/b] which is in each one as something that is his own, is taken away either by the forces of human nature or by a remedy other than the merit of the one mediator, our Lord Jesus Christ,[9] who has reconciled us to God in his own blood, made unto us justice, sanctification and redemption;[10] or if he denies that that merit of Jesus Christ is applied both to adults and to infants by the sacrament of baptism rightly administered in the form of the Church, let him be anathema; for there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.[11]

Whence that declaration:
Behold the Lamb of God, behold him who taketh away the sins of the world;[12] and that other:
As many of you as have been baptized, have put on Christ.[13]

4. If anyone denies that infants, newly born from their mothers' wombs, are to be baptized, even though they be born of baptized parents, or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins,[14] but that they derive nothing of original sin from Adam which must be expiated by the laver of regeneration for the attainment of eternal life, whence it follows that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins is to be understood not as true but as false, let him be anathema, for what the Apostle has said, by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death, and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned,[15] is not to be understood otherwise than as the Catholic Church has everywhere and always understood it.[/quote]

I think the bolded parts put emphasis on the teaching that we share more in Adams sin in just physical death and a tendency to sin.