Original Sin

[rkwright]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='08 October 2009 - 03:51 PM' timestamp='1255035062' post='1981169']
The Fathers of the Council of Trent didn't think so.
[/quote]

aw... and I thought I was going to beat Rexi to Trent on this one! I had it up for something else I was working on....

Edited October 8, 2009 by rkwright

[Selah]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='08 October 2009 - 05:38 PM' timestamp='1255034310' post='1981153']
I do not believe that anyone is born sinful.

Adam, by his sin, made himself and all his descendants mortal, but mortality is not a punishment of God; instead, it is simply the consequence of Adam's failure, as the head of the human family, to rise to divine status through grace.
[/quote]

What is the difference between that and Semi-Pelagianism? I heard a Calvie tell me that that's what it was once.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='08 October 2009 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1255048705' post='1981336']
What is the difference between that and Semi-Pelagianism? I heard a Calvie tell me that that's what it was once.
[/quote]
The necessity of grace, which Pelagianism rejected.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Selah' date='08 October 2009 - 06:38 PM' timestamp='1255048705' post='1981336']
I heard a Calvie tell me that that's what it was once.
[/quote]
I would not pay too much attention to what Calvinists think, because they subscribe to the Monenergist heresy.

[Selah]

[quote]The necessity of grace, which Pelagianism rejected. [/quote]

Ahhhhhh See now I didn't think of that. But yes, grace is still needed, as we all still do sin.

[mortify]

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 03:07 PM' timestamp='1255028866' post='1981047']
so after jesus came why didn't we get all that back?[/quote]

Because the Just are promised something greater in Heaven.

[quote]why did the desendents(such as us) of the first poeple have to pay for their ansestors crimes? [/quote]

It's like a father who gambles himself into poverty, his children will share in the poverty even though they never gambled.

[quote]and how come they didn't ever get a chance to re-earn all that was lost?[/quote]

Because you can't *earn* a gift from God.


Peace in Christ,
Mortify

[mortify]

Nevermind.

Edited October 9, 2009 by mortify

[OraProMe]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 October 2009 - 03:29 PM' timestamp='1255033792' post='1981137']
I think that's a more accurate explanation of sin, but not Original Sin. While we didn't inherit the particular sin Adam and Eve committed, that first sin has "stained" us in some way. I know there's a term for the sin we commit by choice (the term distinguishes between that and Original Sin), but I can't think of it.
[/quote]

Actual sin.

[Stormstopper]

Any discussion of this question should FIRST begin with Romans 5:12-21 and from there, you build your theology. That's why Protestants continuously shake their heads at Catholics---as we watch you putting "philosophy" up on a pedastel, and the Bible doesn't even come into the equation. So now that you know where to look, will you do it???
Somehow, I doubt it. Your opinions are what count the most.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='19 October 2009 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1255998943' post='1988047']
Any discussion of this question should FIRST begin with Romans 5:12-21 and from there, you build your theology. That's why Protestants continuously shake their heads at Catholics---as we watch you putting "philosophy" up on a pedastel, and the Bible doesn't even come into the equation. So now that you know where to look, will you do it???
Somehow, I doubt it. Your opinions are what count the most.
[/quote]

The Tridentine Decree on Original Sin quotes Scripture extensively.

[Starets]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='19 October 2009 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1255998943' post='1988047']
Any discussion of this question should FIRST begin with Romans 5:12-21 and from there, you build your theology. That's why Protestants continuously shake their heads at Catholics---as we watch you putting "philosophy" up on a pedastel, and the Bible doesn't even come into the equation. So now that you know where to look, will you do it???
Somehow, I doubt it. Your opinions are what count the most.
[/quote]

No, it should begin at the beginning because that's where it began. Please stop acting like a thin skinned punk on a bad barbell day, stop trying to wrap yourself in the mantles of Jesus Christ, St. Paul, and St. Stephen (they don't fit you anyway), remove the chip from your shoulder, empty yourself, and learn humility.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Staretz' date='19 October 2009 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1256004069' post='1988085']
No, it should begin at the beginning because that's where it began. Please stop acting like a thin skinned punk on a bad barbell day, stop trying to wrap yourself in the mantles of Jesus Christ, St. Paul, and St. Stephen (they don't fit you anyway), remove the chip from your shoulder, empty yourself, and learn humility.
[/quote]


"It should begin at the beginning because that's where it began".

Like is anyone supposed to know what THAT means?

I suggested going back to the Scriptures to find the answer, and of course I am handed a dunce cap. I'll say it again: You all are holding your opinions in higher esteem than the word of God, which is the very thing that you will be judged by per John 12:48. As for the assertion about needing to be more "humble", you know very well that if I only wrote ONE line and said "why not inquire at Romans 5", you would STILL find something derogatory to say just by my even suggesting it, so your advice to me to remove my "chip" has went in one ear and out the other. My way of speaking is meant to PROPEL you to find the answer in the Bible, but you may as well admit it, you're just not interested. I'd bet anything that even after this you still WON'T look up Romans 5 and see what it says. So in the end, it is you that needs the attitude adjustment.
As Jesus said, "YOU DO GREATLY ERR (Mr. STAREZ) not knowing the Scriptures."

Edited October 20, 2009 by Stormstopper

[Winchester]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='20 October 2009 - 01:32 AM' timestamp='1256016727' post='1988278']
"It should begin at the beginning because that's where it began".

Like is anyone supposed to know what THAT means?

I suggested going back to the Scriptures to find the answer, and of course I am handed a dunce cap. I'll say it again: You all are holding your opinions in higher esteem than the word of God, which is the very thing that you will be judged by per John 12:48. As for the assertion about needing to be more "humble", you know very well that if I only wrote ONE line and said "why not inquire at Romans 5", you would STILL find something derogatory to say just by my even suggesting it, so your advice to me to remove my "chip" has went in one ear and out the other. My way of speaking is meant to PROPEL you to find the answer in the Bible, but you may as well admit it, you're just not interested. I'd bet anything that even after this you still WON'T look up Romans 5 and see what it says. So in the end, it is you that needs the attitude adjustment.
As Jesus said, "YOU DO GREATLY ERR (Mr. STAREZ) not knowing the Scriptures."
[/quote]
It means start at Genesis, Albert.

[Stormstopper]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='08 October 2009 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1255034310' post='1981153']
I do not believe that anyone is born sinful.

Adam, by his sin, made himself and all his descendants mortal, but mortality is not a punishment of God; instead, it is simply the consequence of Adam's failure, as the head of the human family, to rise to divine status through grace.
[/quote]


Not a word you say in your second paragraph can be verified by Holy Writ as I proved in my debate with Rapahel.

As for your first paragraph, alleging that you don't believe we are born sinful. OY VEY! First of all, your own church teaches at Trent and in your current catechism, exactly the OPPOSITE! Technically, you have no right to call yourself Catholic since you are in dire opposition to your own church, not to mention the Bible. David said that IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIEVE ME (Ps 51:5). This was no shame on his mother, but he was verifying that his very nature was sinful. And "from the womb, they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" (Ps 58:3).
Moreover, man's natural, SINFUL nature comes down to this:
[font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#008000"]"Men do not seek after God"; are "under the dominion of the world, the flesh and the devil"; are "by NATURE children of wrath"; "slaves to sin"; and were "without Christ and alienated....and without God in the world"; "do not even have the [u]ability[/u] to come to spiritual truth"; and are "DEAD in trespasses and sins" (Rms 3:11, Eph 2:2-3; Rms 6:17, Eph 2:12, John 6:44, Eph 2:1). [/color][/font]

[Winchester]

When it's good then it's good it's so good until it goes bad.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='pat22' date='08 October 2009 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1255033166' post='1981117']
but i DONT have the same choice as adam and eve. i was born into there damnation. i was born into a world of suffering
[/quote]

unfortunately, no one said everything was fair.

life smells of elderberries and then you die. but at least there are hamburgers, tacos, so very tasty and good for you, and pretty ladies on the way.

[Christie_M]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='20 October 2009 - 12:15 AM' timestamp='1256019334' post='1988315']
unfortunately, no one said everything was fair.

life smells of elderberries and then you die. but at least there are hamburgers, tacos, so very tasty and good for you,, so very tasty and good for you, and pretty ladies on the way.
[/quote]
don't forget Church


and chocolate.

[Winchester]

How does it feel
to treat me like you do
when you laid your hands upon me
and told me who you are?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='19 October 2009 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1256017870' post='1988293']
Not a word you say in your second paragraph can be verified by Holy Writ as I proved in my debate with Rapahel.

As for your first paragraph, alleging that you don't believe we are born sinful. OY VEY! First of all, your own church teaches at Trent and in your current catechism, exactly the OPPOSITE! Technically, you have no right to call yourself Catholic since you are in dire opposition to your own church, not to mention the Bible. David said that IN SIN DID MY MOTHER CONCEIEVE ME (Ps 51:5). This was no shame on his mother, but he was verifying that his very nature was sinful. And "from the womb, they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies" (Ps 58:3).
Moreover, man's natural, SINFUL nature comes down to this:
[font="Comic Sans MS"][color="#008000"]"Men do not seek after God"; are "under the dominion of the world, the flesh and the devil"; are "by NATURE children of wrath"; "slaves to sin"; and were "without Christ and alienated....and without God in the world"; "do not even have the [u]ability[/u] to come to spiritual truth"; and are "DEAD in trespasses and sins" (Rms 3:11, Eph 2:2-3; Rms 6:17, Eph 2:12, John 6:44, Eph 2:1). [/color][/font]
[/quote]
Not a thing that you have said can be verified by holy writ. I reject your less than 500 year old interpretation of scripture.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Stormstopper' date='19 October 2009 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1256017870' post='1988293']
OY VEY! First of all, your own church teaches at Trent and in your current catechism, exactly the OPPOSITE! Technically, you have no right to call yourself Catholic since you are in dire opposition to your own church, not to mention the Bible.
[/quote]
You clearly do not know what you are talking about, because I am not in opposition to my Church. I am Melkite Catholic and I follow the traditions of the Melkite Church, which has its own traditions, its own theology, its own liturgy, and follows the teachings of its own synods. Let the Roman Catholics be Roman Catholic, but I am not Roman Catholic; I am Byzantine Catholic, and so I follow the doctrine of the holy Fathers of the East.