Is It Overall In A Nation's Interest To Recognize Gay Marriage?

[Socrates]

People consistently ignore this when I post it in other threads, but here's a Church document from Cardinal Ratzinger (now the Pope) which gives in-depth reasons why the state should not give legal recognition to homosexual "unions.": [url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html"]CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH
CONSIDERATIONS REGARDING PROPOSALS TO GIVE LEGAL RECOGNITION TO UNIONS BETWEEN HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS[/url]

Don't ignore it because it's a Church document; it gives arguments from reason, legal, and biological/anthropological standpoints among others, not just religious arguments, and is not only addressed to Catholics.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='08 October 2009 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1255048901' post='1981338']
i think this is a great thread idea.
aside from religious arguments, i see no reason why it wouldnt be allowed or any reason that it would hurt the state. its not like it would reduce the amount of heterosexual baby producing marriages

in terms of social status, as more powerful nations accept gay marriage, it might make the state look good to follow suit.
in terms of people directly affected by it, letting gay people marry would make a lot of people happy. on the otherhand lots of people who really arent affected at all in any way could get furious.[/quote]
The issue should not be whether something benefits [i]the state[/i], but rather the good of society. Personally, I tend to be wary of things that benefit the state. "Gay marriage" would not hurt the state, but would not be benefiical to society, as it rewards perversion and puts it on par with the good of marriage.

[quote]polygamy on the other hand, not a good thing from any perspective. it fosters disrespect for women, is entirely based on greed and does a disservice to any children from such unions. like all the young men who get exiled so there are more women for the older men.[/quote]
I find it somewhat amusing that most of the supporters of homosexual "marriage" are still so opposed to polygamy. Really, there's no coherent reason for supporting "gay marriage" and at the same time opposing polygamy.

Supporters of polygamy would dismiss your arguments as pure prejudice, much as you do against those opposing "gay marriage."

If a man and several women claim to be in love, or a woman and several men (who says polygamy has to be biased against women?) or several men and several women, who are you to say them nay?
How is it your place to declare that polygamy fosters disrespect for women, is based "entirely on greed" or is a disservice to children?

Besides, polygamy has been an accepted form of marriage in many cultures through history, while nowhere, not even in sodomy-accepting ancient Greece and Rome, were homosexual "unions" considered to be on par with marriage. And polygamy is at least tied to reproduction and raising children, while homosexual sodomy is not.
,
Once we base our legal definition of marriage on nothing but subjective feelings of "love" and other mush-headed sentiment, there is really no reason for the state to deny [i]any[/i] forms of "unions" as marriage.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Socrates

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='StColette' date='08 October 2009 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1255038325' post='1981212']
Do we know this for sure? Do we have statistics from countries that allow gay marriage and show what the divorce rate is among them? I'm willing to bet it's similar to the divorce rate of heterosexual couples.

[/quote]
I'd be willing to bet it's significantly higher, but that's just speculation.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='StColette' date='08 October 2009 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1255049748' post='1981351']
Found one study in Sweden about the divorce rate among gay couples

----

Divorce Rate in Same-Sex
Partnerships In Sweden
A new study published by the Institute For Marriage And Public Policy (IMAPP) in May, 2004, sheds light on the high incidence of legal "divorce" among gays who entered into a registered same-sex partnership in Sweden.

The IMAPP report surveys the results of a study published by Gunnar Andersson, earlier this year entitled "Divorce-Risk Patterns In Same-Sex 'Marriages' In Norway And Sweden."

The IMAPP report notes that in Sweden, between 1995 and 2002, there were 1,526 gay partnerships contracted, compared to 280,000 for heterosexual couples. Five out of 1,000 new couples in Sweden are same-sex. Sixty-two percent of those are male same-sex unions.

The survey revealed a high rate of legal divorce among homosexual couples in Sweden. Gay male couples were 50% more likely to divorce within an eight-year period than were heterosexuals; and lesbian couples were 167% more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples.

According to IMAPP: "Even among childless households, same-sex male partnerships experienced almost a 50% higher likelihood (1.49 times as likely) of divorce during the study period, while childless lesbian couples were three times as likely (200% higher likelihood) to break up as a married couple without children."

http://www.narth.com/docs/sweden.html
[/quote]
That answers that.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 03:25 PM' timestamp='1255033512' post='1981127']
Does anyone know a good place to look for statistics regarding rates of HIV/AIDS infection before and after legalization of homosexual unions in countries that have done so? That would be an interesting graph to look at.
[/quote]

To be fair HIV and AIDS was mainly spread because of the promiscuity in the gay community which was a result of people having to be "closeted". Gay men (including husbands) would basically go down to the park for some fun before returning to their families. As monogamous gay relationships have become dominant AIDS has greatly decreased.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Slappo' date='08 October 2009 - 06:10 PM' timestamp='1255043433' post='1981276']
From an economic standpoint, polygamy would prove beneficial to the country and homosexual marriage disadvantageous. The more population growth, the higher the economy.
[/quote]

Well not really because even if gay marriage was illegal that wouldn't mean the gay couples would be having kids thus boosting population growth.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 October 2009 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1255057491' post='1981421']
To be fair HIV and AIDS was mainly spread because of the promiscuity in the gay community which was a result of people having to be "closeted". Gay men (including husbands) would basically go down to the park for some fun before returning to their families. As monogamous gay relationships have become dominant AIDS has greatly decreased.
[/quote]
It's also conceivable that when society gives some form of legitimization to these actions, that men who previously would not have acted on these inclinations would do so.
Conceivable.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 10:13 PM' timestamp='1255057987' post='1981427']
It's also conceivable that when society gives some form of legitimization to these actions, that men who previously would not have acted on these inclinations would do so.
Conceivable.
[/quote]

I know that when I was a little 15 year old freaking out over my sexuality I was waiting for the government to legalize gay marriage before I told my friends.
Conceivable?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 October 2009 - 11:02 PM' timestamp='1255060940' post='1981451']
I know that when I was a little 15 year old freaking out over my sexuality I was waiting for the government to legalize gay marriage before I told my friends.
Conceivable?
[/quote]
I don't understand what you're trying to say.

[OraProMe]

I need more +1's to give away. ):

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 October 2009 - 11:05 PM' timestamp='1255061153' post='1981459']
I need more +1's to give away. ):
[/quote]
Me too. Think it's worth getting an MDiv. just for the extra seven points?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 11:09 PM' timestamp='1255061388' post='1981461']
Me too. Think it's worth getting an MDiv. just for the extra seven points?
[/quote]

I would go all the way and get an S.T.D.

[Kitty]

To be honest, legalizing gay marriage really wouldn't do a whole lot, except grant two people who love each other the right to be married. However, most Christians think that legalizing gay marriage would change everything.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='08 October 2009 - 11:17 PM' timestamp='1255061871' post='1981467']
I would go all the way and get an S.T.D.
[/quote]
REXI WANTS AN STD!

Good point though; if I were to suddenly change my life's plans and get into theology, I'd go all the way. Then I'd probably teach and write papers.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Kitty' date='08 October 2009 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1255061930' post='1981468']
To be honest, legalizing gay marriage really wouldn't do a whole lot, except grant two people who love each other the right to be married. However, most Christians think that legalizing gay marriage would change everything.
[/quote]

Well, technically it wouldn't give anyone the right to get married since a valid marriage cannot exist between two persons of the same sex!

Edited October 9, 2009 by Resurrexi

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1255061388' post='1981461']
Me too. Think it's worth getting an MDiv. just for the extra seven points?
[/quote]

MDiv?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='T-Bone _' date='08 October 2009 - 11:20 PM' timestamp='1255062027' post='1981472']
MDiv?
[/quote]
Masters of Divinity. I think that's the official term.

Or maybe I'd do Canon Law.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1255061959' post='1981470']
REXI WANTS AN STD!

Good point though; if I were to suddenly change my life's plans and get into theology, I'd go all the way. Then I'd probably teach and write papers.
[/quote]

I'm majoring in theology just so I can argue on phatmass.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='08 October 2009 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1255062169' post='1981481']
I'm majoring in theology just so I can argue on phatmass.
[/quote]
I respect that immensely.

That would be my second reason.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1255062105' post='1981478']
Masters of Divinity. I think that's the official term.
[/quote]

Under the pontifical university system it would be an S.T.L. (Sacræ Theologiæ Licentiatus).

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='08 October 2009 - 11:21 PM' timestamp='1255062105' post='1981478']
Or maybe I'd do Canon Law.[/quote]



Canon law is awesome! I would definitely get a J.C.D. if I wanted an ecclesiastical degree.