Exhistental Nihilism

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 October 2009 - 07:13 AM' timestamp='1256296434' post='1990183']
Knight o'C,
Life purpose is not dependent upon belief in a God. Society was here before we existed, and will likely be here afterwards. We can choose our values based on God, or we can choose our values based on the culture of the group.
[/quote]

I know that there can be subjective and relative opinions on a purpose for life, without God. But in the end there just opinions not facts, not really real. Just make believe to make a person feel 'good.'

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 October 2009 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1256247921' post='1989810']
O'rly now? Having no purpose to your life whatsoever, a life where love does not exist. That type of 'life' is better than one of purpose, were love does exist, a life which you clearly do not understand? Nor do these people you speak of.
[/quote]


Love exists without God. It's an emotion. I experience it. It exists in the same sense that happiness, joy, hatred, lust et cetera exist.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' date='23 October 2009 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1256350780' post='1990454']
Love exists without God. It's an emotion. I experience it. It exists in the same sense that happiness, joy, hatred, lust et cetera exist.
[/quote]
I do not believe that man can be truly happy, joyful, or loving apart from God. What man often "feels" as happiness, joy, or love is just a shadow of the real thing which he cannot distinguish because he is blind to the real thing. When man realizes that happiness, joy, and love are inseparable from God, then he realizes that all his supposed happiness, joy, and love are not real unless they arise out of friendship with God.

The perfect example of this is lust. Man seeks happiness, joy, and love in the opposite sex, and he finds some semblance of those things, because he sees in another person the image and likeness of God. But if his relationship with that other person is not first motivated by his relationship with God, then he cannot truly love them (because he will be acting with selfish motives), and he cannot be truly happy or joyous (because the creature only makes us happy and joyous when we know the creator).

Or, as Stevie Wonder so aptly expressed it, "Are you happy when you stick a needle in your vein?"

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' date='23 October 2009 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1256350780' post='1990454']
Love exists without God. It's an emotion. I experience it. It exists in the same sense that happiness, joy, hatred, lust et cetera exist.
[/quote]

No it doesn't. What you are talking about is biological functions and chemical reactions within the body. Natures way of assuring reproduction, and self preservation of the species. There is biological 'love' that can be measured by science, biological functions and chemical reactions. But the Love poets write about can not be proven by science. When most people talk of the love they have for someone they speak in the realm of poetic love, which goes far beyond what science can measure.

Without God emotions are reduced down to nothing more that biological functions and chemical reactions.

Edited October 24, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Anomaly]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='23 October 2009 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1256349218' post='1990445']
I know that there can be subjective and relative opinions on a purpose for life, without God. But in the end there just opinions not facts, not really real. Just make believe to make a person feel 'good.'
[/quote]
Exactly. Choose what you want to believe. Choose to be happy or not. It's our perspective of other's expectations that mostly affect our happiness. Religion believers choose the belief that it gives them the leg up on meaning in comparison to 'heathens'. Heathens mealy choose another set of opinions. It's the disapproval of the opposite opinion that undermines each others.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 October 2009 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1256355271' post='1990509']
Exactly. Choose what you want to believe. Choose to be happy or not. It's our perspective of other's expectations that mostly affect our happiness. Religion believers choose the belief that it gives them the leg up on meaning in comparison to 'heathens'. Heathens mealy choose another set of opinions. It's the disapproval of the opposite opinion that undermines each others.
[/quote]

With a Creator God we have a purpose to our lives, where love, hate, good, evil, right and wrong exist. Those ideals would be factual, truly exist. But without God creating us for a purpose we exist and everything around us by pure chance. Sure without God people can belive in a purpose to our lives, love, hate, good, evil, right and wrong. But those beliefs would not be really real, just like God would not be really real.

Edited October 24, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='23 October 2009 - 11:13 PM' timestamp='1256353983' post='1990497']
No it doesn't. What you are talking about is biological functions and chemical reactions within the body. Natures way of assuring reproduction, and self preservation of the species. There is biological 'love' that can be measured by science, biological functions and chemical reactions. But the Love poets write about can not be proven by science. When most people talk of the love they have for someone they speak in the realm of poetic love, which goes far beyond what science can measure.

Without God emotions are reduced down to nothing more that biological functions and chemical reactions.
[/quote]

Yes. That is correct. What are emotions with God?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 October 2009 - 12:43 AM' timestamp='1256355838' post='1990516']
With a Creator God we have a purpose to our lives, where love, hate, good, evil, right and wrong exist. Those ideals would be factual, truly exist. But without God creating us for a purpose we exist and everything around us by pure chance. Sure without God people can belive in a purpose to our lives, love, hate, good, evil, right and wrong. But those beliefs would not be really real, just like God would not be really real.
[/quote]LOL. That's not convincing at all. Many cultures and animal herds have good and bad behviors without belief in God.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='23 October 2009 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1256356622' post='1990527']
LOL. That's not convincing at all. Many cultures and animal herds have good and bad behviors without belief in God.
[/quote]

Well let's define some terms here. What cultures, and what animal herds? And you are talking about Atheist Cultures that was not before a revolution, a culture of faiths? I would like to hear of the atheist 'animal herds' or atheist nomads, and their history. Seriously.

But perhaps you did not mean atheist nomads and atheist cultures. Perhaps you meant, non-christian cultures of faith? Don't see how that helps your argument. The Catholic Church understands that the reason most cultures through out time believe in God, or gods. Is because man was created with reason, and had written on his heart that He exist. All monotheist and polytheist at least understand that a being(s) greater than themselves exist. And that being(s) give us purpose to our existence because they created us.

In Atheism we have no creator, no mind no thought put into the creation of existence. There is nothing behind our existence, no force. It just it happened at random over billions, and billions of years. Thus no real objective purpose.

Edited October 24, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' date='23 October 2009 - 11:53 PM' timestamp='1256356384' post='1990523']
Yes. That is correct. What are emotions with God?
[/quote]

Spiritual. Emotions with God go deeper than just the biological functions and chemical reactions. But in atheism that's all there is, 'love' is limited to just certain chemical reactions in the brain and body, that cause the person to feel what we call 'love'.

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 October 2009 - 02:30 AM' timestamp='1256365817' post='1990583']
Spiritual. Emotions with God go deeper than just the biological functions and chemical reactions. But in atheism that's all there is, 'love' is limited to just certain chemical reactions in the brain and body, that cause the person to feel what we call 'love'.
[/quote]


The bio chemical process by which humans experience particular emotions is the same for everybody. It's a measurable, predictable biological function. The experience has the same physical properties. What you mean specifically by claiming that it's more meaningful because for you it's "spiritual" I don't know. Why don't you stop explaining what the atheistic position lacks and explain what your position actually is.

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 October 2009 - 02:18 AM' timestamp='1256365119' post='1990579']


In Atheism we have no creator, no mind no thought put into the creation of existence. There is nothing behind our existence, no force. It just it happened at random over billions, and billions of years. Thus no real objective purpose.
[/quote]


Yep. It's unfortunate when the facts seem to present an unpleasant picture.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' date='24 October 2009 - 04:25 AM' timestamp='1256372727' post='1990591']
The bio chemical process by which humans experience particular emotions is the same for everybody. It's a measurable, predictable biological function. The experience has the same physical properties. What you mean specifically by claiming that it's more meaningful because for you it's "spiritual" I don't know. Why don't you stop explaining what the atheistic position lacks and explain what your position actually is.
[/quote]
Love cannot be reduced to a biological emotion. A junkie with a needle in his vein may feel some euphoric semblance of love and happiness, but that doesn't mean he is experiencing love or happiness. Love is an act of the will, and supernatural love is only possible when we become partakers of the Divine nature through Baptism.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' date='24 October 2009 - 04:27 AM' timestamp='1256372875' post='1990593']
Yep. It's unfortunate when the facts seem to present an unpleasant picture.
[/quote]

These are the 'facts' of Atheism, not reality. The Atheistic world-view violates the principle of causality, there can't be more in the effect than there was in the cause. Since there is intelligence in the effect, man, there must be intelligence in the cause.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' date='24 October 2009 - 04:25 AM' timestamp='1256372727' post='1990591']
The bio chemical process by which humans experience particular emotions is the same for everybody. It's a measurable, predictable biological function. The experience has the same physical properties. What you mean specifically by claiming that it's more meaningful because for you it's "spiritual" I don't know. Why don't you stop explaining what the atheistic position lacks and explain what your position actually is.
[/quote]

Ok, lets focus on love. Again in atheism 'love' is limited to just certain chemical reactions in the brain and body, that cause the person to feel what we call 'love'.

But in a Theist reality, Love is far beyond a bio chemical process. The bio chemical process is just an outward sign of the body, of a feeling the soul posses. The bio chemical process is not the 'feeling' itself.

'Love' in atheism is just a a bio chemical process and nothing more.

Love with God is as Saint Paul described it, but it goes further still... because God is love.

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,

it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.

It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

For we know partially and we prophesy partially,

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.

At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 October 2009 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1256393801' post='1990654']
Ok, lets focus on love. Again in atheism 'love' is limited to just certain chemical reactions in the brain and body, that cause the person to feel what we call 'love'.

But in a Theist reality, Love is far beyond a bio chemical process. The bio chemical process is just an outward sign of the body, of a feeling the soul posses. The bio chemical process is not the 'feeling' itself.

'Love' in atheism is just a a bio chemical process and nothing more.

Love with God is as Saint Paul described it, but it goes further still... because God is love.

Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, (love) is not pompous, it is not inflated,

it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,

it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.

It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.

For we know partially and we prophesy partially,

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.

At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
[/quote]

We've had this discussion several times. Every time I ask you for a concrete definition of what you mean by "love" and all your uses of the term, and every time you respond with vague, esoteric responses.

I don't think you know what you mean by your claim, from what I can see you like using this vague argument but are unwilling to flesh it out to an analytically precise proposition.

[Varg]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 October 2009 - 09:49 AM' timestamp='1256392168' post='1990649']
Since there is intelligence in the effect, man, there must be intelligence in the cause.
[/quote]How?

[Productive Catholic]

[quote name='Varg' date='12 October 2009 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1255381384' post='1984085']
What are your views on exhistential nihilism? (believing that here is no point/deeper meaning to life)
[/quote]

Do you mean of the Jean Paul Sartre type? If so, I'd say although I think it is faulty philosophy, it is at least more honest than the "Since God does not exist, everything is great and free" type of worldview. For an existentialist, if God does not exists life must be forlorn.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hassan' date='24 October 2009 - 10:38 AM' timestamp='1256395112' post='1990660']
We've had this discussion several times. Every time I ask you for a concrete definition of what you mean by "love" and all your uses of the term, and every time you respond with vague, esoteric responses.

I don't think you know what you mean by your claim, from what I can see you like using this vague argument but are unwilling to flesh it out to an analytically precise proposition.
[/quote]

In some ways that is correct, in a twisted way. True Love goes far beyond my or anyone's ability to understand it. One reason is that it can not be measured by the scientific method. It is an eternal truth, but I don't believe you can understand that since you reject all 'eternal truths.'

Love is as St. Paul, King David, and many thousands of other Saints, Prophets, and poets write of it, but far more. Perhaps that is something an atheist mind can never comprehend. 'Love' in that world view is reduce to nothing more than bio chemical processes that cause a person to feel what we call 'love'. Love doesn't actually exist just the bio chemical process.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Varg' date='24 October 2009 - 12:22 PM' timestamp='1256401350' post='1990681']
How?
[/quote]

To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction...