OraProMe Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I don't know enough about this topic to participate but I'd be interested in anyone that can present positions for and against organized religion. If there is a God then what proofs are there that he would want organized religion?
Guest Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) " um like organized religion is so whack. like just have a personal relationship with jesus ok ?. like jesus is my homeboy. ok ? ok ? like i read the bible and i know what it says and i interpit it. so like dont tell me about the pope and the cults of organised religion. i'm totally getting raptured before the trib. ok ? ok ? like wont you get saved ? do you really want to go hell ? ok ? ok ? like my church is a old supermarket but we have rockin bands there. like dont you want to be saved ? ok ? ok ? like catholics and their false religoin are like so not saved. like dont you know that ? ok ? ok ? Edited October 13, 2009 by Guest
rkwright Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 07:57 AM' timestamp='1255438676' post='1984527'] I don't know enough about this topic to participate but I'd be interested in anyone that can present positions for and against organized religion. If there is a God then what proofs are there that he would want organized religion? [/quote] Well there is the fact that God Himself started two organized religions... Judaism and Catholicism.
OraProMe Posted October 13, 2009 Author Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' date='13 October 2009 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1255443853' post='1984553'] Well there is the fact that God Himself started two organized religions... Judaism and Catholicism. [/quote] Well no, I meant more how does one prove that.
reyb Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 07:57 AM' timestamp='1255438676' post='1984527'] I don't know enough about this topic to participate but I'd be interested in anyone that can present positions for and against organized religion. If there is a God then what proofs are there that he would want organized religion? [/quote] First, what do you mean by 'Organized Religion'?
MIKolbe Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I am not for organized religion...that's why i'm catholic. </rimshot>
reyb Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='MIkolbe' date='13 October 2009 - 10:21 AM' timestamp='1255447300' post='1984569'] I am not for organized religion...that's why i'm catholic. </rimshot> [/quote] ...meaning... Roman Catholic Church is not an organize religion. So, what do you mean by 'Organize Religion'?
reyb Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='rkwright' date='13 October 2009 - 09:24 AM' timestamp='1255443853' post='1984553'] Well there is the fact that God Himself started two organized religions... Judaism and Catholicism. [/quote] So what is an organized religion?
MIKolbe Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='13 October 2009 - 09:25 AM' timestamp='1255447559' post='1984572'] ...meaning... Roman Catholic Church is not an organize religion. So, what do you mean by 'Organize Religion'? [/quote] my mic must not be working.
eagle_eye222001 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 08:57 AM' timestamp='1255438676' post='1984527'] I don't know enough about this topic to participate but I'd be interested in anyone that can present positions for and against organized religion. If there is a God then what proofs are there that he would want organized religion? [/quote] If Jesus set up a spiritual abstract church, then doctrine must not matter. The differences with things such as abortion, homosexuality, and contraception must be just up to the individual and as long as you profess Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, then you are free. Right? Or, it is acceptable to have conflicting doctrines. Or Jesus set up one church. A visible Church where doctrine matters and no conflicting doctrine and holds the fullness of truth as revealed by God. All other denominations at best would have partial truths. The prevalence of the idea of Apostolic Authority in the New Testament along with the book of Acts outline that Jesus is starting a visible church on earth. If you want I can list Bible verses to support this however in the last debate you didn't accept any Scripture so I won't waste my time posting any. A number of Christian religions trace their religions back to the 1800s or so while the Protestants started in the 1500s. Catholicism believed to be started by Jesus is disputed by some who claim it wasn't started anywhere from 100 A.D. to 400 A.D. or so. However the Catholic Church is the first organized religion to clearly appear out of this "Jesus" incident and the beliefs of this early church are shared by the Catholic Church today as evidenced by the Church Fathers. Now a problem with unorganized religion is how do we get the Bible as we know it? It didn't fall from the sky and nor did Jesus hand a copy to his Apostles. In fact, the Bible was not formed until about the 400s. Before this, not everyone believed nor had access to the same collection of books. So who decides what books go in the Bible? You need some authority group to decided that and it must be instituted by Christ in some manner or it's a fallible collection of infallible books....whatever that is supposed to mean. By historical evidence, and the logical need of an authority, it seems very likely Christ started a visible Church on earth that would be known and would have a Teaching Authority.
Sternhauser Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) I agree with Reyb. The best way to start a flurry of wasted, disordered words is to ignore first principles. If you want to argue the merits of one idea versus another, you must first define your terms. What are the characteristics of "organized religion," and what are the characteristics of "unorganized religion?" ~Sternhauser Edited October 13, 2009 by Sternhauser
mommas_boy Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='13 October 2009 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1255450818' post='1984601'] If Jesus set up a spiritual abstract church, then doctrine must not matter. The differences with things such as abortion, homosexuality, and contraception must be just up to the individual and as long as you profess Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, then you are free. Right? Or, it is acceptable to have conflicting doctrines. Or Jesus set up one church. A visible Church where doctrine matters and no conflicting doctrine and holds the fullness of truth as revealed by God. All other denominations at best would have partial truths. The prevalence of the idea of Apostolic Authority in the New Testament along with the book of Acts outline that Jesus is starting a visible church on earth. If you want I can list Bible verses to support this however in the last debate you didn't accept any Scripture so I won't waste my time posting any. A number of Christian religions trace their religions back to the 1800s or so while the Protestants started in the 1500s. Catholicism believed to be started by Jesus is disputed by some who claim it wasn't started anywhere from 100 A.D. to 400 A.D. or so. However the Catholic Church is the first organized religion to clearly appear out of this "Jesus" incident and the beliefs of this early church are shared by the Catholic Church today as evidenced by the Church Fathers. Now a problem with unorganized religion is how do we get the Bible as we know it? It didn't fall from the sky and nor did Jesus hand a copy to his Apostles. In fact, the Bible was not formed until about the 400s. Before this, not everyone believed nor had access to the same collection of books. So who decides what books go in the Bible? You need some authority group to decided that and it must be instituted by Christ in some manner or it's a fallible collection of infallible books....whatever that is supposed to mean. By historical evidence, and the logical need of an authority, it seems very likely Christ started a visible Church on earth that would be known and would have a Teaching Authority. [/quote] Hmm. I like this a lot. So, if I understand this correctly, the logic is "One Church, or none".
JimR-OCDS Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1255438676' post='1984527'] I don't know enough about this topic to participate but I'd be interested in anyone that can present positions for and against organized religion. If there is a God then what proofs are there that he would want organized religion? [/quote] We first have to distinguish the differences between faith and religion. Faith, is a gift from God. It is the revelation of God himself, to a person, however that may happen. Religion, is how we respond to that faith. As people of faith come together to share that faith, they become a religion. God comes to people in different ways and as people are different, so will their faith experience be different. As they seek out others who have shared the same experience, they eventually end up with an organized religion. Jim
eagle_eye222001 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='mommas_boy' date='13 October 2009 - 01:35 PM' timestamp='1255455350' post='1984636'] Hmm. I like this a lot. So, if I understand this correctly, the logic is "One Church, or none". [/quote] Yes, as if there are many churches....then what exactly you believe must not be important since all the differing beliefs are equal and or at best relative. Some non-Catholics argue Jesus set up a spiritual unified church only but again you run into the same problems of whose authority is behind the Bible and what doctrinal beliefs matter and why. It really boils down to one visible church with a Teaching Authority or else it comes down to my interpretation versus yours. If you look at all the Protestant denominations what do you see? Are they unified? They would argue that they are since they all go by Sola Scriptura but then you see some churches believe in full-imersion baptism, and others do not, some believe children should not be baptized, others not. Many believe in the "rapture" but then there are several different versions of the rapture... So who is right? They all claim sola scriptura! Are they all right?
Cow of Shame Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='Delivery Boy' date='13 October 2009 - 11:12 AM' timestamp='1255439520' post='1984528'] " um like organized religion is so whack. like just have a personal relationship with jesus ok ?. like jesus is my homeboy. ok ? ok ? like i read the bible and i know what it says and i interpit it. so like dont tell me about the pope and the cults of organised religion. i'm totally getting raptured before the trib. ok ? ok ? like wont you get saved ? do you really want to go hell ? ok ? ok ? like my church is a old supermarket but we have rockin bands there. like dont you want to be saved ? ok ? ok ? like catholics and their false religoin are like so not saved. like dont you know that ? ok ? ok ? [/quote] Is this the equivalent of a Punk'd post or something?
iheartjp2 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 I think it's correct to say that just about every religion you can think of is organized. It depends on who's organizing it and how it's organized. Religion is the way by which one binds himself to his god (be it God or someone/thing else). We are human and are therefore made to be subjugated to someone/thing. Whatever that is and however one chooses to approach it is, in essence, their religion. I chose Catholicism.
reyb Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 [quote name='iheartjp2' date='13 October 2009 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1255467774' post='1984742'] I think it's correct to say that just about every religion you can think of is organized. It depends on who's organizing it and how it's organized. Religion is the way by which one binds himself to his god (be it God or someone/thing else). We are human and are therefore made to be subjugated to someone/thing. Whatever that is and however one chooses to approach it is, in essence, their religion. I chose Catholicism. [/quote] Can we take the above presentation as our definition of 'organized religion'? How about atheism? Can we consider it as a form of 'organized religion'?
iheartjp2 Posted October 13, 2009 Posted October 13, 2009 (edited) [quote name='reyb' date='13 October 2009 - 07:18 PM' timestamp='1255475933' post='1984819'] Can we take the above presentation as our definition of 'organized religion'? How about atheism? Can we consider it as a form of 'organized religion'? [/quote] I'd argue that, in theory, yes, we could. Whoever (or whatever) you're giving honor, respect, or even glory to (he/she/it not being God), you are by so doing, making him/her/it your god. How you go about living that out in your daily life is arguably (from my standpoint) your "religion". It's not a conventional notion, I know. I'm just philosophizing. Edited October 13, 2009 by iheartjp2
OraProMe Posted October 14, 2009 Author Posted October 14, 2009 I mean why do you need a structure, body of dogma, rituals etc. to know God?
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