Organized Religion?

[Socrates]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 08:24 PM' timestamp='1255479842' post='1984843']
I mean why do you need a structure, body of dogma, rituals etc. to know God?
[/quote]
Why would God want disorganized religion?

Presuming God exists, He'd want us to know the Truth about Him, and how to we should worship and serve Him.

Why would God wish millions of different conflicting ideas about Him and how to follow Him?

Truth is objective, not relative.

[OraProMe]

Is it neccesary that the creator would want his creation to know, love and serve him? For what purpose?

[little_miss_late]

If you take as a given that the Creator is good and loves his creations, why would those creations NOT want to know, love, and serve him? In that case, some help in the form of teachers, leaders, rituals, etc. would be a gift.

Just throwing that out there. I don't think I can "prove" this to you.

edit to say: Hope that saying I don't think I can prove it sounds snarky. I am not trying to make fun of your question. I just don't know what to do with what sounds like an overwhelming need for proof. What would proof look like to you? Is there anything that would qualify as proof?

Edited October 14, 2009 by little_miss_late

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1255483285' post='1984876']
Is it neccesary that the creator would want his creation to know, love and serve him?[/quote]

Necessary? It seems to be as then what would be the purpose of creating us? Entertainment? The football game ended early and he had nothing to do for awhile? If you want a purpose behind it, then it seems necessary.


[quote]For what purpose?[/quote]

To love him and serve him in this world and the next. He wanted beings to love and serve him with a choice and not be loved by a bunch of robots.

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='13 October 2009 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1255439520' post='1984528']
" um like organized religion is so whack. like just have a personal relationship with jesus ok ?. like jesus is my homeboy. ok ? ok ? like i read the bible and i know what it says and i interpit it. so like dont tell me about the pope and the cults of organised religion. i'm totally getting raptured before the trib. ok ? ok ? like wont you get saved ? do you really want to go hell ? ok ? ok ? like my church is a old supermarket but we have rockin bands there. like dont you want to be saved ? ok ? ok ? like catholics and their false religoin are like so not saved. like dont you know that ? ok ? ok ?
[/quote]

I think this is kind of mean.

Personally, I needed some time to sit alone and read the Bible and figure out what my "personal relationship" to God was before I felt brave enough to talk to Catholics I knew or go to church. I am glad I didn't run into anyone who mocked my need to grow in faith before I could consider joining a church. I didn't go to a church in a storefront or tell anyone they were in a cult, but I did sit in a park and listen to some rockin bands on my iPod for a while. It doesn't make me stupid. You know?

[reyb]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1255483285' post='1984876']
Is it neccesary that the creator would want his creation to know, love and serve him? For what purpose?
[/quote]

In your topic starter, it seems you do not agree that an organized religion, which you now seems to present as a group of believers sharing an ‘organized’ ritual, teaching or dogma – meaning, one church out of many, is a possibility and the truth about God can only be found thru that particular ‘organized religion’.

Furthermore, it seems you are looking for a reason, if not the very reason why God would ever created us. From where you are leading to an idea that if God truly created us, considering God exists, He created us for his own intentional purposes and that is to serve Him. And self-serving act is not a holy act.

Do I get it right?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='13 October 2009 - 08:41 PM' timestamp='1255484487' post='1984899']
If you take as a given that the Creator is good and loves his creations, why would those creations NOT want to know, love, and serve him?
[/quote]

Wow, I was thinking the exact same thing 20 minutes ago....while grocery shopping.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='reyb' date='13 October 2009 - 09:34 PM' timestamp='1255487655' post='1984941']
In your topic starter, it seems you do not agree that an organized religion, which you now seems to present as a group of believers sharing an ‘organized’ ritual, teaching or dogma – meaning, one church out of many, is a possibility and the truth about God can only be found thru that particular ‘organized religion’.

Furthermore, it seems you are looking for a reason, if not the very reason why God would ever created us. From where you are leading to an idea that if God truly created us, considering God exists, He created us for his own intentional purposes and that is to serve Him. And self-serving act is not a holy act.

Do I get it right?
[/quote]


Ahhh no, I'm not really trying to argue either way or challenge anyones beliefs. I'm just trying to understand.

Yeah?

[reyb]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 07:57 AM' timestamp='1255438676' post='1984527']
I don't know enough about this topic to participate but I'd be interested in anyone that can present positions for and against organized religion.

If there is a God then what proofs are there that he would want organized religion?
[/quote]

Okay so, you are simply asking if God wanted an organized religion.

[OraProMe]

Yeah. And if the argument for organized religion is based on the bible then how do we know the bible is a reliable source.

[reyb]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='14 October 2009 - 01:23 AM' timestamp='1255501438' post='1985041']
Yeah. And if the argument for organized religion is based on the bible then how do we know the bible is a reliable source.
[/quote]

This is the reason why I asked in the very beginning, what do you mean by 'organized religion'. God is a God of order, peace, justice, righteousness, kindness, and love and it is not possible to attain such status quo if God is not an 'organized' God. In short, God is a Perfect God therefore He must have a perfect Church.

And regarding, how can you know that the bible is a reliable source - that is the irony of it, nobody has the right or power to prove it except God. But on the other hand, how can you be very sure that the bible is not a reliable source too if you will not try to read it and seek for the truth? But for me, I know that the Holy Scriptures are written by True witnessess of God thru Christ because I am here today. It is not a matter of faith but of reality. I am here today.

Edited October 14, 2009 by reyb

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='13 October 2009 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1255439520' post='1984528']
" um like organized religion is so whack. like just have a personal relationship with jesus ok ?. like jesus is my homeboy. ok ? ok ? like i read the bible and i know what it says and i interpit it. so like dont tell me about the pope and the cults of organised religion. i'm totally getting raptured before the trib. ok ? ok ? like wont you get saved ? do you really want to go hell ? ok ? ok ? like my church is a old supermarket but we have rockin bands there. like dont you want to be saved ? ok ? ok ? like catholics and their false religoin are like so not saved. like dont you know that ? ok ? ok ?
[/quote]
This comment seems really unfair. Unfair because not only are you disrespecting how some people interpret their faith, but also stereotyping and mocking is taking away energy better used in educating and being a positive example for the Church. Unfortunately, not everyone is Catholic, but there are still brothers and sisters who have a deep love for Christ who don't necessarily stand for organized religion. But, evidently, they have Christ in their hearts. Perhaps they hold, "church," at a coffee house, a bar or whatever, but don't forget that they're making a time in their life to share the Bible and Christ at all. That's a starting point, isn't it?

Also, these people may or may not be folks who look down on Catholicism. People knocking on Catholicism come from all over, whether or not they're part of organized church bodies.

It can hurt pretty bad when someone maliciously denounces Catholicism, or ignorantly refers to someone as a, "Mary Worshipper." It feels like your comment is a version of this kind of meanness. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to explain your faith to them instead of mocking them?

A person can have a deep love for Christ and a relationship with God even if they're not Catholic. If we spent our time resenting how they worship or mocking that worship, how can we expect them to come to Christ's true church? It seems to be much more practical and Christ-like to love them, pray for them (if you know someone like this, then pray with them), and share what you know to be true with them.

[reyb]

[quote name='little_miss_late' date='13 October 2009 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1255485725' post='1984913']
I think this is kind of mean.

Personally, I needed some time to sit alone and read the Bible and figure out what my "personal relationship" to God was before I felt brave enough to talk to Catholics I knew or go to church. I am glad I didn't run into anyone who mocked my need to grow in faith before I could consider joining a church. I didn't go to a church in a storefront or tell anyone they were in a cult, but I did sit in a park and listen to some rockin bands on my iPod for a while. It doesn't make me stupid. You know?
[/quote]

Delivery Boy, I am waiting for your response to little_miss_late. Ok? Ok?
Anyway, please let us go back to our discussion regarding 'organized religion'.

Edited October 14, 2009 by reyb

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1255479842' post='1984843']
I mean why do you need a structure, body of dogma, rituals etc. to know God?
[/quote]


The dogmas, are what has been revealed to us, by God. Rituals, are how we worship God.

You don't need these to know God, for God can only be known from His own revelation to you, however
He chooses to do this. For many, God is revealed through the teachings and rituals of the Church.

For myself, God revealed himself outside of the Church, but led me back to it, for it is the one Jesus Christ
established for us to be guided by.


Jim

[JimR-OCDS]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='13 October 2009 - 10:21 PM' timestamp='1255483285' post='1984876']
Is it neccesary that the creator would want his creation to know, love and serve him? For what purpose?
[/quote]



To share eternal happiness with Him.


Jim

[Sirklawd]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='14 October 2009 - 02:23 AM' timestamp='1255501438' post='1985041']
Yeah. And if the argument for organized religion is based on the bible then how do we know the bible is a reliable source.
[/quote]

I think you guys are misunderstanding where Ora is coming from. These questions are not attacks. Perhaps they should be posted in the "Questions + Answers about Catholicism" board.

But in any case, it comes down to this:
If God is real, and he created us, what does he want from us? and how do we know for sure?

A huge amount of what christians believe comes from revelation - basically God just telling us what the deal is and to do this or do that. Belief in revelation is based on faith. We have to have faith that it really is God saying this. Luckily, christianity is not a religion of JUST faith. We believe, and teach that reason is just as important. Reason itself is a gift from God, and we can (and should) use it figure this whole thing out - and we can actually get pretty far with reason. But for many particular things like sacraments and knowing that God is a trinity, we essentially are taking Jesus's word for it. We believe Jesus was Lord, and we are following what he said, not just because he said so, but because for us he proved what he was saying was true.

Everything Catholics do is based on what Jesus taught. As the church grew, as with any organization, it became easy for people to get confused and teach and do the wrong things (especially with different pockets of christianity being so far apart). A hierarchy was necessary to keep the faithful on the right path of the truth of Christ. The Apostles set up local bishops in each area they went to, and these Bishops setup even more local priests. Christ gave this authority to the apostles. If there was a dispute (as there always is), it went back to the bishops and then back to the top Bishop, Peter. (Examples of this leadership are all throughout the Bible)

I hope this helps a little more.

When it comes to using reason to disern God's nature, I like to turn back to the teachings of Aquinas. He goes through proofs of God's existence, and then proves how God is actually "Good" and not "Evil". How God IS love. How love creates. Why we have freewill, and what we're suppose to do with it. and what our purpose is.

Reason can get us very far. It's quite amazing.

(Due to space, im not actually getting into any of this, but I can if necessary, or other can too)

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='14 October 2009 - 02:23 AM' timestamp='1255501438' post='1985041']
Yeah. And if the argument for organized religion is based on the bible then how do we know the bible is a reliable source.
[/quote]

In one of my posts, I listed historical arguments as well.

[quote name='reyb' date='14 October 2009 - 05:49 AM' timestamp='1255513779' post='1985066']
This is the reason why I asked in the very beginning, what do you mean by 'organized religion'. God is a God of order, peace, justice, righteousness, kindness, and love and it is not possible to attain such status quo if God is not an 'organized' God. In short, God is a Perfect God therefore He must have a perfect Church.

And regarding, how can you know that the bible is a reliable source - that is the irony of it, nobody has the right or power to prove it except God. But on the other hand, how can you be very sure that the bible is not a reliable source too if you will not try to read it and seek for the truth? But for me, I know that the Holy Scriptures are written by True witnessess of God thru Christ because I am here today. It is not a matter of faith but of reality. I am here today.
[/quote]

That doesn't help us though when the book of Mormon comes along or someone wants to add or subtract books.

[Jesus_lol]

i think it is more about the objection to a "morally superior seperate governing entity that is run like a corporation" that people dislike about "organized religion" not the fact that everyone follows the same rules.

there is a certain amount of mob rule with some organized religion, coupled with the fact that they always think of themselves as morally correct and everybody else as somehow less worthy, many atrocities can be commited.

what one jerk wouldnt do alone, can easily be justified by 200 jerks and a guy telling them that there cause is just and God is on their side. case in point, witch burning, suicide bombings, etc.

[reyb]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' date='14 October 2009 - 12:25 PM' timestamp='1255541106' post='1985169']
That doesn't help us though when the book of Mormon comes along or someone wants to add or subtract books.
[/quote]
I know. I hope there are mormons out there listening to us - The book of Mormons is not in tune with the Epistle of Paul and the Holy Prophets. It is much better to read the Holy Quran along with the Holy Bible.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='reyb' date='14 October 2009 - 06:49 AM' timestamp='1255513779' post='1985066']
In short, God is a Perfect God therefore He must have a perfect Church.[/quote]So if the Church isn't perfect, it isn't God's Church? That paints you into a corner into defining what is Church. Or, more logically, if a God is Perfect, he doesn't "need" a perfect Church.