Protestant = Modern Day Pharisees

[MC Just]

Title explains it

[homeschoolmom]

no, I don't think it does. Care to elaborate and defend your position?

[Hananiah]

Hmmm... the Pharisees were a Protestant group, the Sadducees being the preists. And they did seem to believe that justification was extrinsic to the interior man, since they were so concerned with appearances rather than with loving their neighbors. Is that what you were getting at?

[MC Just]

lol-Pharisees were "Sola Torah" Just like Protestants are "Sola Scriptura"

Yet i've heard some throw out the claim that Catholics are like the Pharisees.

[Good Friday]

Actually, the Pharisees were not [i]sola Torah[/i], that was the Sadducees. The Pharisees believed in the doctrine of resurrection, while the Sadducees did not. The Sadducees did not believe it because it was not in the Torah, but the Pharisees believed it because it was in the other books of the Tanakh and because it was contained in the oral tradition. There are other examples of the Pharisees believing things not found in the Torah. It's very possible that, as classifications go, Jesus was a Pharisee, despite His many disagreements with them.

Calling the Protestants modern-day Pharisees, for any reason, is insulting. It is not only insulting to Protestants, because they are [i]not[/i] modern-day Pharisees, it is insulting to Rabbinical Judaism, the offspring of the Pharisees. Protestants are what they are, and there is no charitable reason to compare them to any other group. Furthermore, why do you think it's okay to do something that you, yourself, would find insulting? If a Protestant referred to you, or all Catholics, as modern-day Pharisees, would you like it? No. It would insult you. And I'd imagine it would insult the Protestants here at Phatmass, unnecessarily.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Apr 5 2004, 09:07 PM'] Actually, the Pharisees were not [i]sola Torah[/i], that was the Sadducees.  The Pharisees believed in the doctrine of resurrection, while the Sadducees did not.  The Sadducees did not believe it because it was not in the Torah, but the Pharisees believed it because it was in the other books of the Tanakh and because it was contained in the oral tradition.  There are other examples of the Pharisees believing things not found in the Torah.  It's very possible that, as classifications go, Jesus was a Pharisee, despite His many disagreements with them.

Calling the Protestants modern-day Pharisees, for any reason, is insulting.  It is not only insulting to Protestants, because they are [i]not[/i] modern-day Pharisees, it is insulting to Rabbinical Judaism, the offspring of the Pharisees.  Protestants are what they are, and there is no charitable reason to compare them to any other group.  Furthermore, why do you think it's okay to do something that you, yourself, would find insulting?  If a Protestant referred to you, or all Catholics, as modern-day Pharisees, would you like it?  No.  It would insult you.  And I'd imagine it would insult the Protestants here at Phatmass, unnecessarily. [/quote]
That's not what Brother Bob, (A Jewish Convert to the Catholic Church) said today on EWTN. He explained them all, and specifically said the Pharisees, were "Torah Only"

Edited April 6, 2004 by MC Just

[MC Just]

I say it because I can. I was bothered by a few protestants posts. S I decided to just throw something out there.

Edited April 6, 2004 by MC Just

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 5 2004, 10:14 PM'] I say it because I can. I was bothered by a few protestants posts. S I decided to just throw something out there. [/quote]

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Apr 5 2004, 09:07 PM'] Calling the Protestants modern-day Pharisees, for any reason, is insulting. ...<snip>... If a Protestant referred to you, or all Catholics, as modern-day Pharisees, would you like it? No. It would insult you. And I'd imagine it would insult the Protestants here at Phatmass, unnecessarily. [/quote]
I agree. It is not charitiable to call names. Even if others call us names, it is wrong for us to do likewise. The "best" way to drive non-Catholics away from the Church is to insult them. Trust me, I have been insulted by Catholics many times without their even knowing it some of the time. It only made me move further from Catholicism. I am becoming Catholic in spite of that. But it still hurts to hear name-calling on both sides... I hope that people here feel freer than they would in "real life" ie, I would hope that conversations in person would be much more civil with less bating... Please... Protestants love Christ, too.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I agree charity!

I can tell you though that I have noticed alot of posts that jab at the Catholic Church instead of wanting to learn.

Charity Amen.

Giving witness to the One Truth
Amen!

God Bless
Jason

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Jason' date='Apr 5 2004, 09:48 PM'] I can tell you though that I have noticed alot of posts that jab at the Catholic Church instead of wanting to learn.
[/quote]
I've noticed this, too. I can't explain it except to think that the idea of being annonymous "allows" people to be less than civil. I agree that there have been some mean-spirited posts from non-Catholics... Well, maybe not mean-spirited, but rather bating... posting something trying to get a reaction. I don't know why people do that. I wish they wouldn't. But please remember, that when you are saying deragatory things about Protestants using a big ol' one-size-fits-all statement, you are saying it about Brother Adam and Mrs. Brother Adam and all the other Protestants who truly are trying to learn. (and let's face it, Adam can defend Catholicism better than 90% of us!!)

I have to believe that discussions like these are not honoring to Christ... both sides are guilty.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Apr 5 2004, 09:14 PM'] I say it because I can. I was bothered by a few protestants posts. S I decided to just throw something out there. [/quote]
have I ever called YOUR faith...that is, the faith you possess, unfounded or unChrist-like?

have I ever called YOU part of the Great Whore of Babylon?

no.

I post SOOOO much about my faith and what I believe, and what happens? laughter and looking down thru your "2000 years"... thats fine...just prewritten almost-respones from Rome.

I DO say that your church has some unsound doctrine...and NOWHERE do I say that all protestant churches have totally sound doctrine...and IF I am wrong, the Lord will correct me...I don't care how long it takes, I come to Him with open hands and a willing heart, so IF the Roman Catholic Church is right, which ANYONE has yet to prove with their extensive "DOC DUMPS" as Bruce so nicely calls them, your 2000 years (which is actually considerably less) of tradition, to which I say look at the very same Jews you compare the protestants to...how many more years of tradition and ritual and oral tradtion did they have passed down, all the "breaking down" of what the bible really means...

call all the names you want...it shows what you will resort to to get your point across.

in Christ,

the lumberjack

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]which ANYONE has yet to prove with their extensive "DOC DUMPS"[/quote]

Here we go again!

That's not an open heart. This is what I'm talking about right here!!!!!

[the lumberjack]

ok, sure why not...I'm a closedminded, coldhearted heretic.


but I'm proud of it!

[Livin_the_MASS]

You say heart, what do you want to know from the heart?

God Bless
Jason

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]MC Just writes:[/b]
That's not what Brother Bob, (A Jewish Convert to the Catholic Church) said today on EWTN. He explained them all, and specifically said the Pharisees, were "Torah Only"[/quote]
Well, I'm willing to admit that Brother Bob may know something I don't, but I've always read, heard and been taught that the Pharisees did not rely on the Torah alone. But being that he has a better education than I do, and being that he's known he's a Jew for longer than I have, I'm willing to concede that he may be right on that point and I may be wrong. I simply don't have the education to argue with him.

[quote]I say it because I can. I was bothered by a few protestants posts. S I decided to just throw something out there.[/quote]
Actually, I don't think you "can," and I think that will be demonstrated shortly. But in addition to the fact that I don't think you can, because dUSt is calling Catholics to a higher level of charity and maturity than he's expecting from non-Catholics (and rightly so), I also think it's deplorable that you would try, just because you "can." I've been bothered by a few Protestants' posts, too, and by quite a few more Catholics' posts. Some of my responses have landed in the Back Alley, because I've behaved in a juvenile and uncharitable manner. But I think it's necessary for all of us to try to respect dUSt and Phatmass enough not to break his rules, respect the Church enough to follow her teachings on charitability, respect Christ enough not to hammer our harsh remarks into the nail wounds in His hands, and respect our [i]separated brothers and sisters[/i] enough not to insult them and drag them further away from union with us. I'm not saying we'll always succeed, because it's in our fallen human nature to fail, but we should pray that Christ will give us the strength to persevere in charity.

The bottom line is this: we either believe the phorum is a powerful tool for evangelization, or we believe it's just another Catholic message board. If we believe it's a powerful tool for evangelization, then it's necessary for us to use it to evangelize rather than to drive others further away with our nasty remarks. If we believe it's just another Catholic message board, then by all means we should continue to bite each other's heads off, and to slap the non-Catholics who come here right in the face, until there's nothing left (as has happened with many other Catholic message boards).

To the Protestants here: this uncharitable attitude that prevails among some on this phorum is not the attitude of all Catholics, and it is certainly not the attitude of the Church. I encourage you to read the documents written by the Pope, and by many of the Bishops. Nowhere in those documents do you find the kind of scathing remarks you will sometimes find here, because the Bishops and the Pope have a level of maturity and holiness that none of us here possess. Please don't feel that all Catholics are ready to call you modern-day Pharisees. For every remark like that, there are at least ten of us -- Azriel, BLAZEr, myself, and others -- shaking our heads and thinking how counterproductive such remarks really are. But we don't say anything, sometimes, because we don't want to stir things up even more. But please be assured that there are people here who aren't willing to brand you the Greatest Heretic of All Time.

[dUSt]

I originally moved this to the Back Alley because it was rather uncharitable--but then, after reading Good Friday's last post again, I think it's worth it to keep in the Debate Table.

I encourage everyone to read Good Friday's post, and actually listen to what you're reading.

God bless.

[cmotherofpirl]

excellent post Good Friday.
Lumberjack if I have ever offended you I apologize.

[Bruce S]

[quote]To the Protestants here: this uncharitable attitude that prevails among some on this phorum is not the attitude of all Catholics, and it is certainly not the attitude of the Church. [/quote]

Historically, sadly, it has been. It is only in the past few years that Catholics engaged at all with Protestants without tossing some Anathema curse at us.

This site is actually pretty good at letting things play out, and I have to give dUSt and his moderator team credit for that one.

Shame there are not more Protestants, or even a Mormon or JW around to have some fun with, too many "Me Too" agreement posts for my taste, so I try to keep you guys honest...grin.

[Norseman82]

When I think of pharisees the image I get is of heartless nitpickers.