Baptism

[Justified Saint]

[quote]thats exactly it...you'd give them your church teachings before the Bible...

putting confidence in man...not in God.

and how would you minister to an unsaved person? by carrying your WHOLE Compendium of Catholocism?

or by carrying your Bible?

"THE WORD OF GOD IS SHARPER THAN A TWO EDGED SWORD..."

not the Roman Catholic church...not the doctrines, decrees, and documents that are constantly being "developed"

the word of God.

and thats what I do.

amen and God bless. [/quote]


And that is what a lot of people have done. The result - 30,000 different answers to the same question. The fact is lumber the world has tried your method and everytime someone tries it they get a new version of the truth.

The Church and the Bible aren't at odds because the Church gave us the Bible.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 06:49 PM'] she had SO MUCH faith in CHRIST, and that she was SO unworthy of Him stopping and dealing with just her, since she had been all but cast out with the lepers, that she thought that if she could only touch HIS garment, she would be healed.

if this is not so, why didn't the crowd thronging our beloved Saviour become instantly healed of everything? when SHE touched Him, He turned and asked "Who touched me?" not before...when she moved and touched Christ out of FAITH.

she touched Christ, yes, but had she touched Him without faith, it would have been for nothing. [/quote]
GC says,

[quote]Let's see....

She had faith before they touched Jesus, or else she wouldn't have done it.

But she was only healed AFTER they TOUCHED him, not before.

An object can represent the manifestation, or completion of faith.
It might not be enough to just "think" something or "think" you have faith. An outward sign or symbol can demonstrate your faith. [/quote]


Did you miss his reply? Just wondering!
God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

well, Jason, it would seem as if people are trying to make me say something other than what the Bible is trying to say...

but if GC concurs...does that mean that I believe something the Catholic Church teaches?

oh my, now we don't want that, do we? cuz that either means that you guys are becoming protestants, or that you're actually reading your Bible for yourselves.

but thats just my interpretation...guess I'm wrong on all counts.

God bless.

[CreepyCrawler]

we believe that you don't have to be catholic to have some truth. even pagans had some truth. the Church just has the complete truth.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 07:50 PM'] well, Jason, it would seem as if people are trying to make me say something other than what the Bible is trying to say...

but if GC concurs...does that mean that I believe something the Catholic Church teaches?

oh my, now we don't want that, do we? cuz that either means that you guys are becoming protestants, or that you're actually reading your Bible for yourselves.

but thats just my interpretation...guess I'm wrong on all counts.

God bless. [/quote]
[b]Matthew 18: 12-18[/b]

What is your opinion? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine in the hills and go in search of the stray?

And if he finds it, amen, I say to you, he rejoices more over it than over the ninety-nine that did not stray.

In just the same way, it is not the will of your heavenly Father that one of these little ones be lost.

"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

[b]If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that 'every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.'[/b]

[b]If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.[/b]

Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='CreepyCrawler' date='Apr 25 2004, 10:09 AM'] i think we've gotten away from the original question.

i have two questions for the protestants:
what does baptism do? does it do anything to your soul, why or why not?

what is baptism? is it just a demonstration of faith and a symbol of something or is it an actual washing/regeneration of your soul?

thanks. [/quote]
no one answered my simple questions so i'm reposting them.

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='CreepyCrawler' date='Apr 25 2004, 02:24 PM']

her faith could mean her faith as a physical manifestation (her actually moving to touch him) or just simply believing (but then she wouldn't have to touch Him).

why did power move out of Jesus if it was her faith that saved her? what was this power?

and please reconcile the contradictory ideas of "jesus saves" versus "your faith saves." to me it's a contradiction, but to you it's not. please explain why without just pointing to the Bible and saying 'the bible says.'

i read what you posted and i don't understand. thanks. [/quote]
i'm reposting these too if you could get around to them LJ. thanks!

[the lumberjack]

CC, if you read thru the whole topic, you'll see exactly how we've progressed to this point...

and as for the latter questions, I'm pretty sure that I answered those...but if you think I didn't, I will.

deal?
deal.

God bless.

Christ first and only.

[CreepyCrawler]

actually i did read thru the entire thread before i posed these questions but i don't think you answered them. if you did, then you didn't answer them precisely so i'd appreciate it if you'd answer them precisely, one bye one, and thoroughly (and not just here's the bible verse and that's it. i want to know how u interpret the verse, too). thanks.

[God Conquers]

It still doesn't matter how much faith she had... if she didn't actually touch him, she would not have been healed. It was her PHYSICAL act DRIVEN by faith, which Christ honored.

Notice that very rarely Christ simply heals someone... most times he uses a physical sign, placing hands, mud, spit etc. Sacramentals.

[the lumberjack]

so then why isn't mud or spit a sacramental?

I mean, you say that Christ did it...so why isn't it?

why don't I see vats of holy mud in RC cathedrals?

or why don't I see bishops and the like spitting in the face of people to help them be more holy?

and again, I say, if she would have touched Christ without faith, it would have been worth nothing...you ARE correct in saying it was a physical act driven by faith...but ultimately, as Christ Himself said, it was her faith (in Him), that healed her.

-----

and CC...I'll see what I can do about your questions...

[cmotherofpirl]

If Jesus used it it would be a sacramental: something dedicated to a holy use.

You keep forgetting God made the world and it is good, and Jesus used bread and wine to give us himself forever.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 26 2004, 09:49 AM'] so then why isn't mud or spit a sacramental?

I mean, you say that Christ did it...so why isn't it?

why don't I see vats of holy mud in RC cathedrals?

or why don't I see bishops and the like spitting in the face of people to help them be more holy?

and again, I say, if she would have touched Christ without faith, it would have been worth nothing...you ARE correct in saying it was a physical act driven by faith...but ultimately, as Christ Himself said, it was her faith (in Him), that healed her.

-----

and CC...I'll see what I can do about your questions... [/quote]
"Blessed are those who DO NOT SEE and believe."

Yes we are required faith, just like I have faith that Jesus Christ is Truly Present in The Holy Eucharist Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinty.

For He said His Flesh is TRUE FOOD and HIS BLOOD is TRUE DRINK.

He said " I AM THE LIVING BREAD THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN; WHOEVER EATS THIS BREAD WILL LIVE FOREVER; AND THE BREAD I WILL GIVE IS MY FLESH FOR THE LIFE OF THE WORLD"

Do you have this faith, have you asked for it? I have faith in the Holy Eucharist because He has taken pitty on me a wretched sinner, I know and believe because of God's goodness.

I think your problem is your looking at faith as something seperate from God, when it is actually a 100% a gift from God.

Faith, yes He calls us to faith and so much more.

Example of faith
"My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not my will, but as you will."

Faith with childlike submission. Faith with love and obedience
Faith in The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, ahh this is true faith for this is were the one who plants the seeds is doing His growing and His Father pruning.
Faith, yes, but faith in God's One Sacred Word and Church, childlike faith!


God Bless
Jason

[the lumberjack]

thank you for that lovely SWITCH of topics, but I'll stay to the one I'm on now. as I've stated MANY times before, my faith lies in Christ and His Holy Ghost, not in man...not in some institution of religion.

you can start a topic about the host in another thread...for the 5th time...

JS and CC, I'll reply more later.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

double posts...you know I hate'em.

Edited April 26, 2004 by the lumberjack

[God Conquers]

Again, you miss the main thrust of my argument.

I TOTALLY agree that if she had touched without faith, nothing would have happened.

BUT she still HAD TO TOUCH TO BE HEALED.

No touchy, no healy.

[the lumberjack]

GC,

in this case, yes, I agree...but what of the centurion whose servant was sick?

didn't he say that if Christ only said he was healed, he would be? was that not an act solely out of faith?

Matthew 8:

[quote]5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,

[b]6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.

7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.[/b]

8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, [b]Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.[/b]

11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.[/quote]


----
and JS,

I'll get back to you...I had a really good post, but my internet was all kinds of jacked up...I'll respond later.

God bless.

[God Conquers]

Totally.... that's why we can be healed through faith in deed and in prayer.

So, if God allows someone of faith to be healed by touching a cloak, why not a fingernail? Maybe that same person could have prayed harder and it would have been granted, but maybe God has lessons for us to learn about ACTING in faith.

[the lumberjack]

what are you trying to say here...I'm not sure I follow.

I mean, I THINK I agree with you...but if you mean other than what you posted, please clarify.

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='CreepyCrawler' date='Apr 26 2004, 07:44 AM'] actually i did read thru the entire thread before i posed these questions but i don't think you answered them. if you did, then you didn't answer them precisely so i'd appreciate it if you'd answer them precisely, one bye one, and thoroughly (and not just here's the bible verse and that's it. i want to know how u interpret the verse, too). thanks. [/quote]
don't mean to be annoying, but u didn't answer my questions... i'm waiting..