Ancient Egyptian Religion And Catholicism

[OraProMe]

What does everyone make of this ?




Wikipedia:

[i]Molds are made from wood of a red tree in the forms of the sixteen dismembered parts of Osiris, cakes of divine bread made from each mold, placed in a silver chest and set near the head of the god, the inward parts of Osiris as described in the Book of the Dead (XVII). On the first day of the Festival of Ploughing, where the goddess Isis appears in her shrine where she is stripped naked, Paste made from the grain is placed in her bed and moistened with water, representing the fecund earth. All of these sacred rituals were climaxed by [b]the eating of sacramental god, the eucharist by which the celebrants were transformed, in their persuasion, into replicas of their god-man (Larson 20).[/[/b]i]




The passion of Osiris is reflected in his name 'Wenennefer" ("the one who continues to be perfect"), which also alludes to his post mortem power.[12]

Parts of the Osirian passion ceremonies have drawn comparison with later Christian rituals relating to the passion of Jesus Christ. Historian M. D. Donalson compares the fourteen part Osirian ceremonies with the route followed in the fourteen part Roman Catholic Stations of the Cross ritual.[22]

Christian scholar Stephen Benko argues that the death and resurrection of Osiris, the sorrow followed by the joy, made a similar impact on the Ancient Egyptians as the passion and resurrection of Jesus Christ had on Christians, as enacted during the Good Friday and Easter Sunday ceremonies.[23]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

[CatherineM]

You are going to find some similarities between religions. I believe that we are made to worship by our creator. We have some things hard wired into us. The important thing to remember is that only Christ's Church has the fullness of what our Creator wants for us.

[InHisLove726]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='18 October 2009 - 11:17 PM' timestamp='1255922266' post='1987669']
You are going to find some similarities between religions. I believe that we are made to worship by our creator. We have some things hard wired into us. The important thing to remember is that only Christ's Church has the fullness of what our Creator wants for us.
[/quote]

I would agree. The quote is also from wikipedia which is open to editing from anyone.

[Veridicus]

Is the implication of this comparison on Wiki that Jesus just superceded and fulfilled the Osirian legend and thus is early Christianity was more syncretism than inspiration? So Jesus is just another Mithras, Osiris, Horus, The Corn-King,...is that the point?

It is possible that paganism, like pre-Christian philosophy, reached vainly at the unknowable and yet at times produced images which in retrospect can seem familiar through the transparency of Faith.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='18 October 2009 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1255922444' post='1987674']
Is the implication of this comparison on Wiki that Jesus just superceded and fulfilled the Osirian legend and thus is early Christianity was more syncretism than inspiration? So Jesus is just another Mithras, Osiris, Horus, The Corn-King,...is that the point?

It is possible that paganism, like pre-Christian philosophy, reached vainly at the unknowable and yet at times produced images which in retrospect can seem familiar through the transparency of Faith.
[/quote]
I prefer to think of pre Christian paganism as an extraordinarily inferior Old Testament. If the Old Testament is a magnifying glass, then the New Testament is an electron microscope, and pre Christian paganism is a bag full of muddy water.
...but it does still point, in its own way, towards the source of its very limited truth, which is definitely fulfilled in Christ.

Edited October 19, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Archaeology cat]

The grain growing was thought to represent Osiris' resurrection (though he was not resurrected to this life, but to life in the underworld), and Egyptologists have found grain/corn "mummies": mummiform figures of Osiris made of grain/corn.

While EA Wallis Budge is cool in that he translated a lot of things, and stole (erm, I mean acquired )a lot of things for the British Museum, take his interpretations with a grain of salt.

I will grant that I'm not an ultimate expert on Osiris, but I have studied him quite a bit, and I've never seen anything in scholarly sources about a "eucharist" associated with him. The source Wiki quotes for that is from a book called [i]The Story of Christian Origins[/i] by Martin Larson. From his Wiki page, it says his degree was in literature, and he writes of theological history and the Essenes (that right there should be a warning if he writes of modern Essenes, who are not related to the ancient Essenes in their thought, AFAIK). It also says that his lifelong work was to detail theological controversies in Christianity and Christianity's evolution from the cults of Dionysus & Osiris, so I'd say we can pretty much dismiss that, if that was his entire purpose. Because if that was his intended purpose, then it seems that he started with his hypothesis and then found "evidence" to suit it - bad research.

They did get the Wenenefer part OK. Nefer means beautiful/perfect, and the wen part would indicate the translation they give, AFAIK (bearing in mind that I haven't touched Middle Egyptian in months). Osiris was killed and cut into pieces by his brother Set, and put back together by Isis, Nepthys, and Anubis. They were able to resurrect him as lord of the underworld, but not to this world. A deceased person was associated with Osiris in death, just as the pharaoh was associated with Horus (his son) in life.

[OraProMe]

I love you.

[Archaeology cat]

Glad to help, Ora. I have to use that degree for something.

[CatherineM]

I remember Daniel Jackson making fun of Budge as well. Wonder if that is where our Budge got her name.

[kamiller42]

People try to discount Judeo-Christian faith by comparing the beliefs and practices of those religions with some pagan religion. It makes no sense. Pagans prayed to their gods, so does that mean prayer is a pagan activity? Of course not!

Man has been seeking the Truth since the beginning, asking very similar questions. It's just some have taken incorrect paths and found the wrong answers. Yes, even the Israelites at times. God first revealed the truth to the Jewish people. He gave his ultimate answer in Jesus.

So the critics can continue to compare Christianity or Catholicism to paganism, but it doesn't mean a thing because those pagan religions they speak of are dead. Jesus lives and so does his Church.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

If you follow that Larson reference through to the works cited, it's clear that the author wasn't writing on egyptology, but on the so-called origins of Christianity. There have been so many commentaries on pagan origins of Christianity that are half-baked by hacks. Checking out reviews of some of his books on Amazon, it appears he was a non-theologian and his PhD was in English (along the lines of a "psychologist" with a PhD in physical education). I'm not saying that he isn't a decent researcher, but it certainly seems sketchy to me.

That having been said, Catherine has an important point. Norse mythology has Balder, a beloved god who dies and faces the prospect of resurrection (but is kept from achieving it by a rather nasty character). The fact that death and a desire to see our loved ones come back from the dead exists in our general cultural consciousness doesn't mean that it's somehow invalid when a person claims it's actually happened. We have to ask ourselves which of these recurring themes are very human; those will of course be recurring, without our needing to jump to the conclusion that one faith tradition stole from another.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Raphael' date='20 October 2009 - 02:02 AM' timestamp='1256000556' post='1988056']
If you follow that Larson reference through to the works cited, it's clear that the author wasn't writing on egyptology, but on the so-called origins of Christianity. There have been so many commentaries on pagan origins of Christianity that are half-baked by hacks. Checking out reviews of some of his books on Amazon, it appears he was a non-theologian and his PhD was in English (along the lines of a "psychologist" with a PhD in physical education). I'm not saying that he isn't a decent researcher, but it certainly seems sketchy to me.[/quote]
I can assure you that, without an Egyptology or archaeology degree, the Egyptological and archaeological communities would discount his work. And of course there's the fact that I've never seen an Egyptologist or archaeologist who mentions a "eucharist" of Osiris. There are some non-Egyptologists/non-archaeologists who have done some decent research, but still are kinda taken with a grain of salt in the Egyptological/archaeological community.

[quote name='Raphael' date='20 October 2009 - 02:02 AM' timestamp='1256000556' post='1988056']That having been said, Catherine has an important point. Norse mythology has Balder, a beloved god who dies and faces the prospect of resurrection (but is kept from achieving it by a rather nasty character). The fact that death and a desire to see our loved ones come back from the dead exists in our general cultural consciousness doesn't mean that it's somehow invalid when a person claims it's actually happened. We have to ask ourselves which of these recurring themes are very human; those will of course be recurring, without our needing to jump to the conclusion that one faith tradition stole from another.
[/quote]
Good point

[iheartjp2]

That quote sounds like something a follower of Jack Chick would put on wiki, just saying.

[CatherineM]

I'll bet we are the only Catholic website with a staff Egyptologist.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='20 October 2009 - 06:16 PM' timestamp='1256058985' post='1988468']
I'll bet we are the only Catholic website with a staff Egyptologist.
[/quote]
Just a SAHM w/ an Egyptology degree.

[thessalonian]

To add to what has been said, first of all I did a study of the Horus/Orisis claim back a while ago and found it to be a strech. But having said that, Rom 2:14-16 says that God has implanted his laws on all men's hearts. That is the commandments. All cultures have some version of the Golden rule for instance. Adultery, murder, theft etc. are undesirable in all religions. That is a manifestation of Rom 2:14-16. The first commandment is also manifest in some fashion in all religions and so we may see things in people who are non-christian and even not monotheistic that reflect this desire to worship the one true God. So that there are similarities and truths in such people and similarities is not that out of the ordinary. Paul himself recongnizes truth in the pagans of the Areopogus in Acts 17 when he quotes their sage Epimedes "in him we live and move and have our being" and "kicked at the goads...". There are pagan trinities, pagan virgins, etc. etc.

[Saint Therese]

There also was a a native American tribe that had the ten commandments.

[jonyelmony]

Long pointless story I was on the Wu Tang boards and someone made the claim regarding the story of Jesus being the story of Osiris retold and wikipedia was the first place I checked and was sorta disheartened. Which is part of the reason I joined this community even though I never bothered to ask about Osiris. So I am glad to hear responses here. I have to also note that the supposed similarities between pictures of Mary and Jesus with Isis (that was his mum right) and Osiris and they were tenuos at best.

Also I remeber the fact that the Novel Futility in 1898 described a ship called the Titan hitting an iceberg and sinking. This fact is obviosuly not evidence that the titanic actually did sink 15 years later

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='jonyelmony' date='21 October 2009 - 05:17 AM' timestamp='1256098630' post='1988836']
Long pointless story I was on the Wu Tang boards and someone made the claim regarding the story of Jesus being the story of Osiris retold and wikipedia was the first place I checked and was sorta disheartened. Which is part of the reason I joined this community even though I never bothered to ask about Osiris. So I am glad to hear responses here. I have to also note that the supposed similarities between pictures of Mary and Jesus with Isis (that was his mum right) and Osiris and they were tenuos at best.

Also I remeber the fact that the Novel Futility in 1898 described a ship called the Titan hitting an iceberg and sinking. This fact is obviosuly not evidence that the titanic actually did sink 15 years later
[/quote]
Isis was the wife (and sister) of Osiris, and mother of Horus. Having images of mother and son doesn't discount Mary & Jesus, because motherhood is a universal quality of human culture. The similarities pretty much end there, though, since Isis was not a virgin when she conceived (despite what some claim - the myths don't bear that up), etc.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='20 October 2009 - 07:52 PM' timestamp='1256079138' post='1988651']
There also was a a native American tribe that had the ten commandments.
[/quote]
Documentation?