Ancient Egyptian Religion And Catholicism

[jonyelmony]

[i]Q: what is the sun-looking thing that carries the Eucharist?

It's called a "monstrance". Very astute to notice it looks like the sun. The very "god" the neighbouring egyptians worshipped as the "divine creator" and "life giver" of all beings. Also notice the traditional image of Jesus with a 'halo' around him places his head behind a sun-like object.
The egyptians called their sun-god "Amun", or as is often pronounced in Hebrew, "Amen".
Christianity is a rip-off of egyptian mythology.[/i]

my response

[b]Amen mean "So be it " in Hebrew. Connections between Chritianity and Egyptian mythology are tenuous at best and are advocated by those who are not so subtly setting out to refute Chrisitianity not eminent Eqgyptologists. [/b]

[i]Does it not bother anyone that there isn't the slighest shred of evidence for any supernatural claims of theology, especially since these claims were made at a time where superstition was rampant, and the ideas written down then also smack of the countless creation myths of surrounding greece, rome and egypt...all of which u undoubtedly label as myths & fairytales and don't take the slighest bit seriously?[/i]


[b]Well if experts in mythology, C.S Lewis and J.R Tolkien can be convincd by Christianity it can not be so ridiculous can it.[/b]

Am I on point?

[jonyelmony]

He has replied, but i don't really want to see it, I really hate debating and am a coward.

[Archaeology cat]

You are correct that Amun/Amon/Amen (vowels aren't written in Egyptian, so we just put in what vowels sound right to us pretty much; btw, the actual consonants for the name Amun are YMN) is not etymologically the same as "amen" in Hebrew, which actually begins with a glottal stop if I remember correctly (the consonants for it would be transliterated as 'MN). And yes, it does essentially mean "so be it" or as an affirmation that the statement is true.

Amun was a creator god, with the myth being that he created the earth of the primordial mound. It wasn't until the New Kingdom that he was merged with the sun-god Re, becoming Amun-Re.

So yes, your answer was correct. It's always good to point out, as you did, that the supposed connections/parallels with the pagan religions are often tenuous, or nonexistent.

[MithLuin]

Awww, don't be a coward .

But yes, I think that to continue the debate, you'd have to acknowledge a few things - he is not arguing fairly or from a deep understanding. Anyone who says "Amun sounds like Amen" doesn't understand how language works *at all*. Or, he does understand that his arguments are specious, and he's just jerking your chain, trying to see if *you're* that gullible.

I mean, does he really think that the ancient Egyptians were the only ones to look up in the sky and see the sun, or give it great importance in their view of the universe? This is a case of both groups choosing the same symbol for the same reason (sun = light!), relatively independently of one another. Yes, the Egyptians predate the Christians, but this isn't a case of linear development of ideas, so chronology isn't the only question to consider.

Clearly, he thinks that myths are 'lies', so he's just trying to discount Christianity as 'another myth.' The idea that mythology can contain deeply human truths seems foreign to him. As such, be prepared to go all Joseph Campbell on him if you want to continue the discussion. At the very least, get into a discussion of whether or not a metaphor can be true. Pick non-religious examples to keep the conversation open to both of you (like "Juliet is the sun" from Shakespeare)

It was Tolkien who convinced C.S. Lewis that he was mistaken to refer to myths as "lies breathed through silver." If you have not read [url=http://home.ccil.org/~cowan/mythopoeia.html]"Mythopoeia"[/url] by Tolkien, I recommend it . Also, Tolkien's 'On Fairy-Stories', in which he basically considers the gospel as a fairy tale...that is true in the primary world, and not 'just a story,' is the source of the word 'eucatastrophe' to explain Christian joy, and why people [i]like[/i] fairy tales and myths, even if they aren't believed as something that really happened. The question would be...why do people still tell the story of Osiris, even if no one believes him to be a god? Why did the ancient Egyptians tell his story?

If your definition of truth is 'what really happened,' then you're not going to make much headway in figuring out what mythology and fairy tales are all about. Truth should not be confused with reality, though in Christianity, they are both present . When John has Pilate ask Jesus, "What is truth?" he highlights the centrality of this question, and even though Pilate doesn't wait for an answer, Jesus had already answered the question as "I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life." Pretty powerful stuff - the stuff of myth, certainly.

Good luck....

Edited November 3, 2009 by MithLuin

[Didacus]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='18 October 2009 - 10:08 PM' timestamp='1255921698' post='1987664']
What does everyone make of this ?




Wikipedia:

[i]Molds are made from wood of a red tree in the forms of the sixteen dismembered parts of Osiris, cakes of divine bread made from each mold, placed in a silver chest and set near the head of the god, the inward parts of Osiris as described in the Book of the Dead (XVII). On the first day of the Festival of Ploughing, where the goddess Isis appears in her shrine where she is stripped naked, Paste made from the grain is placed in her bed and moistened with water, representing the fecund earth. All of these sacred rituals were climaxed by [b]the eating of sacramental god, the eucharist by which the celebrants were transformed, in their persuasion, into replicas of their god-man (Larson 20).[/[/b]i]




The passion of Osiris is reflected in his name 'Wenennefer" ("the one who continues to be perfect"), which also alludes to his post mortem power.[12]

Parts of the Osirian passion ceremonies have drawn comparison with later Christian rituals relating to the passion of Jesus Christ. Historian M. D. Donalson compares the fourteen part Osirian ceremonies with the route followed in the fourteen part Roman Catholic Stations of the Cross ritual.[22]



Christian scholar Stephen Benko argues that the death and resurrection of Osiris, the sorrow followed by the joy, made a similar impact on the Ancient Egyptians as the passion and resurrection of Jesus Christ had on Christians, as enacted during the Good Friday and Easter Sunday ceremonies.[23]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris
[/quote]


What are the chances that those who studied ancient Egypt were influenced by their own views of Christianity in their conclusions rather than Christianity being influenced by Egypt?



here's a little know fact - did you know there are about120 stories of Horus? Horus is usually the first god of ancient egypt to be compared to Jesus. There are well over a hundred stories of Horus and they found one that is 'kinda-sorta' similar to that of Jesus' birth - so of course the atheistic science world jumped on the chance and cliamed that Jesus was simply based on Horus.

Yet why is there over 100 stories of Horus - becuase ancient Egypt didn't communicate very well from region to region. Communication was so slow, that different regions developped differnet stories of each of their deity, and different traditions. So out of all these tradidtions, that we find a few that are similar to that of Jesus' story is not only unsurprising, but is entirely expected.


Finally, look up what are the 5 or 6 academic elements that are required to show influence from one culture to the next and you'll find that similarities in stories is only the first criteria - and the weakest....

[jonyelmony]

I think I erred when i said that I that eminent Egyptologists don't advocate the link between Christianity and ancient Egyptian religion, that is probable not complelty accurate. From what i can really gather any serious analysis suggests that some influence from pagan customs and myths but stop well short of claiming Christianity has Pagan origins or Christianity "rips off ancient egyptian"

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jonyelmony' date='03 November 2009 - 10:12 AM' timestamp='1257257562' post='1995656']
I think I erred when i said that I that eminent Egyptologists don't advocate the link between Christianity and ancient Egyptian religion, that is probable not complelty accurate. From what i can really gather any serious analysis suggests that some influence from pagan customs and myths but stop well short of claiming Christianity has Pagan origins or Christianity "rips off ancient egyptian"
[/quote]
Archeology Cat who posted above, since she is an egyptologist, can probably address this .

[StColette]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='20 October 2009 - 05:52 PM' timestamp='1256079138' post='1988651']
There also was a a native American tribe that had the ten commandments.
[/quote]

Never heard of this, but I know some tribes have prayers that are very similar to our own prayers to the Holy Spirit. Some tribes were even monotheistic while others were extremely polytheistic.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Didacus' date='03 November 2009 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1257256379' post='1995653']
What are the chances that those who studied ancient Egypt were influenced by their own views of Christianity in their conclusions rather than Christianity being influenced by Egypt?
[/quote]
Bingo. If you read any of E. A. Wallis Budge's works on Egyptian religion, it is very easy to see how his views on Christianity coloured his analysis of Egyptian religion (BTW, he didn't see a link between Horus and Jesus as far as I'm aware). Because of this, modern Egyptologists do not generally accept all of Budge's conclusions. His main contribution was in acquiring lots for the British Museum

[quote name='jonyelmony' date='03 November 2009 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1257257562' post='1995656']
I think I erred when i said that I that eminent Egyptologists don't advocate the link between Christianity and ancient Egyptian religion, that is probable not complelty accurate. From what i can really gather any serious analysis suggests that some influence from pagan customs and myths but stop well short of claiming Christianity has Pagan origins or Christianity "rips off ancient egyptian"
[/quote]
I wouldn't say that you necessarily erred. I honestly can't think of any Egyptologist who advocates a causal link between the two. That's not to say that there might not be one, but I certainly can't think of one, and can't think of one who would lend much credence to that. But please bear in mind that I am not familiar with all the scholars. One of the problems with those trying to prove a causal relationship between, say, Jesus and Horus or Osiris, is that many begin with that premise and then cherry-pick their evidence, ignoring the far greater evidence that does not denote a link. To do good research, they should just look strictly at what the primary sources (such as the Pyramid Texts) tell them.

[Archaeology cat]

Basic info on the various gods and goddesses of Egypt can be found [url="http://www.philae.nu/akhet/Netjerulist.html"]here[/url]. Richard Wilkinson's [url="http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Gods-Goddesses-Ancient-Egypt/dp/0500051208/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257263187&sr=8-1"]The Complete Gods and Goddesses of Ancient Egypt[/url] gives basic info about all the deities, and Byron Shafer's [url="http://www.amazon.com/Religion-Ancient-Egypt-Personal-Practice/dp/0801497868/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257263239&sr=8-1"]Religion in Ancient Egypt[/url] is good, too, though a bit more technical. It's a compilation of articles from various Egyptologists, including John Baines. And for those who want something more technical, there's Erik Hornung's [url="http://www.amazon.com/Conceptions-God-Ancient-Egypt-Translated/dp/B0010YJEQ6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1257263406&sr=1-2"]Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt: the One and the Many[/url], translated by Baines. I mean, if anyone has time to kill and wants to read such things. On a tangential note, at a lecture, Baines thought it was humorous when my son started crying when a person at the lecture criticised Baines' work.

[Didacus]

Waht do you make of this?

[url="http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/comparsison_horus_jesus_chart.htm"]horus vs jesus[/url]

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Didacus' date='03 November 2009 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1257274118' post='1995758']
Waht do you make of this?

[url="http://paganizingfaithofyeshua.netfirms.com/comparsison_horus_jesus_chart.htm"]horus vs jesus[/url]
[/quote]
Total bunk, to put it mildly. I'll go through some of them

-born of a virgin
-- Isis was most certainly not a virgin. Horus was conceived after his father's (Osiris) death and dismemberment, but Isis and Nepthys found all the parts and Anubis put him back together and he was at least "alive" enough to impregnate Isis

-Mother Meri
--the word "mr" is very common, and commonly makes its way into names (Meri = mry with the consonants). It essentially means "beloved". So you get names with variations on that. The etymology for Miriam (mrym for the consonants) is uncertain, AFAIK, but considering "mr" in Hebrew means bitter, it may be a variation on that.

-annunciation
--According to one myth, Isis had a dream that she would have a son who would avenge his father's death. No angel involved AFAIK

-a star
--The rising of the star Sirius was important for the start of the calendar with the season of flooding. I don't know of a story saying Horus' birth was heralded by Sirius

-foster father Seb
--This person is either referring to Geb (whom Budge mistransliterated as Seb) or Set. Geb is the father of Osiris, so grandfather of Horus, and Set was the brother of Osiris who killed and dismembered him.

-Horus has eye restored at 12
--I think he lost his eye as an adult in a fight with Set, so he couldn't very well have it restored at 12. I could be wrong about the timing of his fight with Set, since I've not looked much at that particular myth.

-baptism
--I've never seen any story of Horus being baptised in any of the myths

-raising of Osiris
--Horus didn't raise Osiris, Anubis did. And he wasn't raised to live in this world, but in the underworld, so not comparable to Lazarus

-etymology of Osiris
--Osiris/Usiris is the Greek version of his name; the Egyptian is WSYR, though it is sometimes put as Asar. Putting "el" in front of it wouldn't say "the Asar" in Hebrew, because the definite article in Hebrew is to put a he in front, so that would be Haasar perhaps. El means God.

-death of Horus
--The only reference I know of to Horus dying is him being stung by a scorpion as a child. Isis is distraught and goes to Nephthys, who tells her to go to Thoth (the god of wisdom), who gave her an incantation to heal him.

[Archaeology cat]

Been awhile since I've read Hornung's work, so I'd forgotten he does say that Christianity owes a debt to Egyptian religion. I don't think he holds that it was necessarily a deliberate lifting of the myths, but I can't remember.