Mark of the Cross Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 October 2009 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1256225268' post='1989632'] No, I'm saying that without God, morality is irrational and unnecessary. [/quote] Idon't think that's right. In an evolutionary atheistic society moralitywould still be valid for the benefit of the hive and evolutionaryadvancement. [quote name='Resurrexi' date='23 October 2009 - 07:16 PM' timestamp='1256285810' post='1990170'] Everyone knows that only idiots are in jail for the first part. Smart people usually don't get caught. [/quote] Ouch! Sarcasm. I like it.
OraProMe Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='23 October 2009 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1256295674' post='1990180'] No, not at all. Show how an eternal being is needed for morality. As OraProMe points out, morality can be based on human social and cultural values. Just based on the need to survive as a group, a group of humans will develop certain rules of behavior so the individuals can operate as a group. What is good for the group in the long term, may require sacrifice of the individual in the short term. That is the foundation of the sense of right or wrong and isn't dependent on an 'eternal or divine' entity. [/quote] Oh yeah, definitely. I would like to point out that I do agree with Winchester that if there is no eternal God then there is no objective (in its most absolute understanding) morality. I'd argue that the natural law doesn't exist and isn't inscribed on the human heart, children know right from wrong because of nurture not nature, and that much of what natural law supposedly applies to is something completely and absolutely cultural (polygamy being a prime example).
Nihil Obstat Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Anomaly' date='22 October 2009 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1256257989' post='1989895'] Or it's an overly-broad sterotype to make a shallow hypthesis workable... [/quote] I believe that my position is the logically consistent one. [quote name='little_miss_late' date='22 October 2009 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1256267121' post='1990046'] Really? This is probably for another thread. But you really don't think that people who don't believe in God can feel compelled to behave generously toward others? Or feel that there is inherent value in the survival of humanity? Do you have any atheist friends who you think are good people? Do you think they are intellectually dishonest? [/quote] I believe that for an atheist to believe in forms of morality is inconsistent with atheism. I'm not saying none of them do. In fact most do. I'm just saying that I don't think it actually fits with what atheism is. [quote name='OraProMe' date='22 October 2009 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1256273054' post='1990123'] Well not really. One can believe that morals have a social and cultural basis rather than a divine basis. That doesn't make morals "unnecessary", it just acknowledges that they are human constructs based on certain premises. They are human developments that guide human action rather than a set of laws that God arbitrarily assigned value to. [/quote] So how can an arbitrary human construct have any inherent value from an atheistic world view? [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 03:13 AM' timestamp='1256285609' post='1990169'] Ok, so you're basically saying that atheists are more likely to commit crimes, right? So how come less than one percent of the American prison population is atheist? [/quote] No, I didn't say that. Try again.
OraProMe Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 October 2009 - 08:06 AM' timestamp='1256303189' post='1990206'] So how can an arbitrary human construct have any inherent value from an atheistic world view? [/quote] Well if they're human [b]constructs[/b] they're not arbitrary are they? Their value depends on the extent to which they achieve their purpose. Would you like to address my objection about your comment that atheism leaves morals unnecessary? Let's not shift the conversation Edited October 23, 2009 by OraProMe
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='23 October 2009 - 09:06 AM' timestamp='1256303189' post='1990206'] I believe that for an atheist to believe in forms of morality is inconsistent with atheism. I'm not saying none of them do. In fact most do. I'm just saying that I don't think it actually fits with what atheism is. [/quote] How?
Nihil Obstat Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='OraProMe' date='23 October 2009 - 08:28 AM' timestamp='1256304516' post='1990214'] Well if they're human [b]constructs[/b] they're not arbitrary are they? Their value depends on the extent to which they achieve their purpose. Would you like to address my objection about your comment that atheism leaves morals unnecessary? Let's not shift the conversation [/quote] Can you repost your question? My brain is all loopy because I've only had six hours of sleep and I'm not allowed to eat. [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 08:38 AM' timestamp='1256305108' post='1990217'] How? [/quote] Did you read any of my posts?
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 Yes, I have read your posts but you haven't said anything that makes any sense at all.
Nihil Obstat Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 09:17 AM' timestamp='1256307438' post='1990226'] Yes, I have read your posts but you haven't said anything that makes any sense at all. [/quote] I disagree.
Nihil Obstat Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 09:28 AM' timestamp='1256308129' post='1990234'] You would. [/quote] You used to respect me.
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 (edited) I still do, but I can't understand what you're trying to say Edited October 23, 2009 by Varg
Nihil Obstat Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1256308469' post='1990237'] I still do, but I can't understand what you're trying to say [/quote] Basically, I don't think you can justify any kind of morals without acknowledging some kind of divine authority.
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 But why? That's the bit I'm having trouble with
cmotherofpirl Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 01:44 PM' timestamp='1256316284' post='1990291'] But why? That's the bit I'm having trouble with [/quote] Because you have no basis for them. I don't go murdering people because its a sin, but what reason do you have not to go do whatever you want in life? If you want to rob banks, what moral reason do you have to stop you? I'm gonna have more than enough time in Purgatory, I don't need to make it longer ! This is not to say there are not good atheists or agnostics out there, but human nature being what it is, their morals are simply personal choice subject to change.
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='23 October 2009 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1256317335' post='1990299'] Because you have no basis for them. I don't go murdering people because its a sin, but what reason do you have not to go do whatever you want in life? If you want to rob banks, what moral reason do you have to stop you? I'm gonna have more than enough time in Purgatory, I don't need to make it longer ! This is not to say there are not good atheists or agnostics out there, but human nature being what it is, their morals are simply personal choice subject to change. [/quote] I can assure you that that view is completely misguided and wrong.
HisChildForever Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='Varg' date='23 October 2009 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1256317768' post='1990301'] I can assure you that that view is completely misguided and wrong. [/quote] I am really curious to see your answers to her questions.
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='23 October 2009 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1256317335' post='1990299'] Because you have no basis for them. I don't go murdering people because its a sin, but what reason do you have not to go do whatever you want in life? If you want to rob banks, what moral reason do you have to stop you? [/quote]Killing is wrong and so is stealing. I don't need an ancient book and an omnipotent deity to tell me that much.
MIKolbe Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 true...but without an ancient book and an omnipotent deity, can you explain why it is wrong?
Servus_Mariae Posted October 23, 2009 Posted October 23, 2009 ...adding to MIKolbe's question; why is it wrong for me to kill and steal just because you think its wrong?[u][/u]
Varg Posted October 23, 2009 Author Posted October 23, 2009 Because it's other people's money and they earned it, I have no right to take it from them (using the example of a bank robbery)
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