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InPersonaChriste

The Wedding Dress Orders (For Us Romantics)

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Chiquitunga    817
Chiquitunga

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/topic/116361-the-wedding-dress-orders-for-us-romantics/page-20

 

it maybe especially since it's the last day that can have long hair, they wear it down, especially for Poor Clares since the cutting of the hair is part of the ceremony. for Carmelites it's done later.

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Chiquitunga    817
Chiquitunga

I meant to post way back... here is Sr. Marie-Angélique of Jesus (1893-1919) who was at the Carmel in Pontoise, France. She is similar to Blessed Elizabeth in that she was an excellent pianist & spent 5 years in Carmel, dying at the age of 26. I am not sure if there is a process going for her canonization, but I am guessing there must be. She is often named with the other great French Discalced Carmelite Nuns, like in this painting of a vision Madame Acarie (Blessed Marie of the Incarnation) had of St. Teresa.

 

T_avila_b.jpg

 

Sr. Marie-Angélique is farthest to the right

 

I copied this from this book Flame of Joy on her (out of print) on her clothing... I was going to post this especially a few weeks ago in relation to the discussion about when the custom of the wedding dress may have begun and how it seems to have been around the French Revolution, especially when they had big ceremonies, where the postulants would leave and re-enter in their dresses. This is would it was for St. Therese.

 

"Marie Angélique received the habit July 29, 1914, in a closed and almost empty chapel ... Contrary to the ceremonial of the time, the postulant remained in the cloister, for the hostility of her parents gave rise to fear of a violent intervention on their part ...The private character of the ceremony allowing departure from the stylish mode of the times, the nuns lovingly adapted the crisp white veil to the virginal type of their little Sister and in her angelic-tunic with the large sleeves, Marie Angélique looked as though she had stepped down from the frescoes of Fra Angelico.
 
Her state of soul from the time preceding her retreat was characterized by "such a desire for the possession of God" that she confided she was almost never distracted. This vehememnt desire literally tore her away, causing her real suffering, and sometimes became "so violent that she could hardly prevent its being noticed externally."
 
Then in response to this desire, Our Lord granted her a strong and sensible grace of union. But the "Thabor of her Clothing" lasted only a day." 

 

 

2dk0r6b.jpg

 

 

from her Profession day, 1918

 

2a65bop.jpg

 

 

2ajw12u.jpg

 

 

 

http://louangedesagloire.blogspot.com/2010/04/coming-soon-flame-of-joy.html

 

 

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graciandelamadrededios    398
graciandelamadrededios

Praised be Jesus Christ! I was researching a little more for this thread regarding the recent norms given, quoted above, for the Rite of Initiation into Religious Life (aka, clothing, investiture) 

 

The original document with these norms was the Ordo Professionis Religiosae published in 1970. (found that here)

 

"Before giving the ritual of temporary and perpetual profession, the Ordo gives the ritual for entrance into the novitiate." (page 292)

 

quoting again from that book, a page up

 

"Until the appearance of the Ordo professionis religiosae, the various religious orders and congregations all used rituals of their own that were more or less original and connected with their manner of life. The Ordo professionis religiosae, which was promulgated on February 7, 1970, does not intend simply to do away with these rituals. It is presented rather as a normative blueprint that is to be respected but that also allows for many adaptions."

 

And I found a similar statement here"Indeed, as the new liturgical law directs, this book makes constant reference to the Roman Ordo Professionis Religiosae (“Order of Religious Profession”), adapting elements of that order to itself, using the freedom that is allowed to the individual religious families"  

 

So that seems to explain why some communities do not follow exactly the norms given by the Ordo. This also makes sense in light of what Gracian has said he has learned from his correspondence with different OCD Prioresses - that after VII individual Carmels were given the freedom to write up their own Ceremonies and Rituals. 

 

Good job, Chiqui!  This is a well-researched information.  Thank you so much!

 

Before Vatican II, The Holy See imposed a near identical Rites of Religious Profession for all communities to follow.  After Vatican II, each religious institutes and orders were encourage to go back to their sources and examine the charism of their Founder/s or Foundress/es.  What are the "healthy traditions" of the order worth keeping and what traditions needs to be revitalized? 

 

After Vatican II, one has to differentiate an active order from an autonomous cloistered order.  Active Orders or Cloistered Congregation with Superior General tends to follow a uniform Rite of Profession as approved by their respective general councils.  The autonomous monasteries such as Carmels are encourage to formulate their own ceremonial, manual, customary, etc.  The Association or Federation with the consent of its members monasteries can formulate the same documents for their own use.  As such Spanish Carmels came up with their own Ceremonial, thicker than the Pre-Vatican II counterpart.  Unfortunately, my copy is in Spanish and I cannot understand its contents.  Chiqui mentioned that some 1990 Carmels created their own English-speaking Ceremonial but I have not seen one.  A 1990 Prioress in the USA informed me that they just created their own Profession Rites, Customary, etc.

 

It is evident on the current practice that Vatican II allows freedom and flexibility in formulating the Rites of Profession as long as it is approved by the Holy See.

 

For better understanding of Vatican II documents, please read Perfectae Caritatis and Sacrosanctum Consilium.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by graciandelamadrededios

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truthfinder    1,340
truthfinder

Elizabeth did :heart:


 

 

and it looks like Chiqui in my profile did too :like:

 

 

I'm going to have to say that in these circumstances, I believe it was very cultural.  An adult woman wore her hair up and therefore girls wore their hair down.  (think about Therese, she wore her hair up just to see the bishop and try and convince him that she was old enough to enter Carmel).  

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Antigonos    201
Antigonos

I'm going to have to say that in these circumstances, I believe it was very cultural.  An adult woman wore her hair up and therefore girls wore their hair down.  (think about Therese, she wore her hair up just to see the bishop and try and convince him that she was old enough to enter Carmel).  

 

The custom of covering one's hair after marriage began at least as far back as the Middle Ages.  A virgin was supposed to let her hair lie free; but since it was an "allurement", covering it [except for one's husband] became the rule.  Wearing one's hair wound up on the head was also thought a sign of maturity, and even as recently as the Victorian period, when a girl was old enough to put her hair up was a sign she was of marriageable age.  So it doesn't surprise me that at investiture, postulants tend to have their hair down.  And of course, it does make cutting it easier...

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truthfinder    1,340
truthfinder

The custom of covering one's hair after marriage began at least as far back as the Middle Ages.  A virgin was supposed to let her hair lie free; but since it was an "allurement", covering it [except for one's husband] became the rule.  Wearing one's hair wound up on the head was also thought a sign of maturity, and even as recently as the Victorian period, when a girl was old enough to put her hair up was a sign she was of marriageable age.  So it doesn't surprise me that at investiture, postulants tend to have their hair down.  And of course, it does make cutting it easier...

 

I think the sign of maturity is why the older pictures of the wedding dress orders we have is of women with their hair up.  They must be mature enough, as seen by their contemporaries, to make a free decision, and wearing their hair up gives a cultural sign that they were indeed adults.

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OnlySunshine    4,501
OnlySunshine

So THAT explains why the Bishop in the movie about St. Therese thought she looked "so grown up"!  I always wondered why he thought that just because she put her hair up. 

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Chiquitunga    817
Chiquitunga

that's right regarding wearing the hair up and maturity, yes, I remember that from St. Therese. thanks for sharing your thoughts here truthfinder, antigonos and Mater! :like:

 

Good job, Chiqui!  This is a well-researched information.  Thank you so much!

 

Before Vatican II, The Holy See imposed a near identical Rites of Religious Profession for all communities to follow.  After Vatican II, each religious institutes and orders were encourage to go back to their sources and examine the charism of their Founder/s or Foundress/es.  What are the "healthy traditions" of the order worth keeping and what traditions needs to be revitalized? 

 

After Vatican II, one has to differentiate an active order from an autonomous cloistered order.  Active Orders or Cloistered Congregation with Superior General tends to follow a uniform Rite of Profession as approved by their respective general councils.  The autonomous monasteries such as Carmels are encourage to formulate their own ceremonial, manual, customary, etc.  The Association or Federation with the consent of its members monasteries can formulate the same documents for their own use.  As such Spanish Carmels came up with their own Ceremonial, thicker than the Pre-Vatican II counterpart.  Unfortunately, my copy is in Spanish and I cannot understand its contents.  Chiqui mentioned that some 1990 Carmels created their own English-speaking Ceremonial but I have not seen one.  A 1990 Prioress in the USA informed me that they just created their own Profession Rites, Customary, etc.

 

It is evident on the current practice that Vatican II allows freedom and flexibility in formulating the Rites of Profession as long as it is approved by the Holy See.

 

For better understanding of Vatican II documents, please read Perfectae Caritatis and Sacrosanctum Consilium.

 

Thank you for sharing all of your thoughts & the information you have gathered on Carmel here with us, Gracian! :)

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pdavis    0
pdavis

Stumbled on this thread looking for ICKSP. Appreciate the help with a question...

The Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus are the Sisters in Gricigliano, Italy based at the Institute of Christ the King.

 

The institute members live an apostolic life, not a consecrated life. Does that mean these Sisters make an apostolic promise to Msgr. Gilles Wach to live an apostolic life according to the constitution of the ICKSP?

 

The secular canons at the ICKSP do not say religious vows, just wondered if the Sisters also do not say consecrated religious vows since it is an apostolic institute?

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cmaD2006    1,880
cmaD2006

Stumbled on this thread looking for ICKSP. Appreciate the help with a question...

The Adorers of the Royal Heart of Jesus are the Sisters in Gricigliano, Italy based at the Institute of Christ the King.

 

The institute members live an apostolic life, not a consecrated life. Does that mean these Sisters make an apostolic promise to Msgr. Gilles Wach to live an apostolic life according to the constitution of the ICKSP?

 

The secular canons at the ICKSP do not say religious vows, just wondered if the Sisters also do not say consecrated religious vows since it is an apostolic institute?

 

I read the community's website, and I can't 100% acertain what sort of vows/promises the sisters make.

 

So ... my suggestion is to contact the community directly with this question, since they will be best fit to answer it.

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