Is It Better To Be In Hell Or To Never Have Existed?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 November 2009 - 07:51 PM' timestamp='1258188674' post='2002568']
Yes. Satan would have won if a part of creation fell into non-being, and that is why existence in hell is itself a form of salvation.
[/quote]
Where does this leave satan?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='14 November 2009 - 02:59 AM' timestamp='1258192762' post='2002572']
Where does this leave satan?
[/quote]
He is cowering powerless in the presence of God.

[Guest Jon]

I hope this link works it's very related to this thread.

http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html

This is just for discussion, I'm not saying I agree or not, thanks.

Here is a sample of the [u]last paragraph[/u] to see if it interests anyone:

Thank God that the wages of sin is not eternal torture, for if it were then our Lord Himself would need to be tortured
forever in order to deliver the human race. Can you begin to see how ridiculous that teaching ( eternal torture ) is?
-In conclusion, let us summarize the reasons that the teaching of eternal torture is to be discarded as false … It is not true
… / The Bible does not teach it … / It goes against the character and nature of God … / It declares the cross of Jesus
Christ as a failure … / The majority of the early church did not teach it … / The scriptures teach the salvation of all men … /
It points to a victorious Devil, and to sin as triumphant over God … / It is unjust … / It produces immature converts who are
motivated to serve God out of fear rather than love … / The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture …
-It has been my privilege to serve all who have taken the time to read this daily devotional. May the Father give you the
spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him! Remember … GOD IS LOVE! HE LOVES ALL! GOD IS ALL-
POWERFUL! HE CANNOT FAIL! HE WILL NOT FAIL! HE IS …
-THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!-

Edited November 14, 2009 by Jon

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Jon' date='14 November 2009 - 03:43 AM' timestamp='1258195439' post='2002574']
I hope this link works it's very related to this thread.

http://www.completerestorationinchrist.org/reasons-not.html

Here is a sample of the [u]last paragraph[/u] to see if it interests anyone:

Thank God that the wages of sin is not eternal torture, for if it were then our Lord Himself would need to be tortured
forever in order to deliver the human race. Can you begin to see how ridiculous that teaching ( eternal torture ) is?
-In conclusion, let us summarize the reasons that the teaching of eternal torture is to be discarded as false … It is not true
… / The Bible does not teach it … / It goes against the character and nature of God … / It declares the cross of Jesus
Christ as a failure … / The majority of the early church did not teach it … / The scriptures teach the salvation of all men … /
It points to a victorious Devil, and to sin as triumphant over God … / It is unjust … / It produces immature converts who are
motivated to serve God out of fear rather than love … / The wages of sin is death, not eternal torture …
-It has been my privilege to serve all who have taken the time to read this daily devotional. May the Father give you the
spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him! Remember … GOD IS LOVE! HE LOVES ALL! GOD IS ALL-
POWERFUL! HE CANNOT FAIL! HE WILL NOT FAIL! HE IS …
-THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD!-
[/quote]
I do not agree with this text, and in fact the idea that hell (i.e., the state of being experienced by those who do not love God) does not exist has been condemned by the 5th ecumenical council as heretical.

The error in the above statement is that it only focuses upon God's love for us, while failing to see that human beings are free to either love God or not, and - as the Holy Fathers taught - only those who love God will experience His presence as blissful joy, while those who rejected His grace during their earthly life will experience His presence as pain and suffering in the eschaton.

God of course condemns no one to hell; instead, hell is the choice of the damned, who - during their earthly life - rejected God's love by living a life of selfishness and sin.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='14 November 2009 - 03:47 AM' timestamp='1258188426' post='2002566']
as has been noted, when we think about it subjectively we often think it would be better; but objectively "existence" is a positive good... non-existence is an evil.
[/quote]
How can something be evil if it doesn't exist? Non-existence only exists in comparison. Non-existence is simply the absence of existence.

[quote]
so I guess I'd approach it this way: do you think existence is a good thing?
[/quote]

It's not good or bad. It just is. Any meaning or value we find in existence (good or bad) is a human construct.

Edited November 14, 2009 by OraProMe

[Aloysius]

to a Christian, existence is good. period. everything that exists is good.

and actually, evil itself doesn't exist. evil is defined as the absence of or the twisting of something which is good; ergo, non-existence is evil because it is the absence of a good. thankfully, non-existence doesn't exist because evil doesn't exist. but causing the absence of something which is good is an evil.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='14 November 2009 - 08:30 AM' timestamp='1258205438' post='2002589']
to a Christian, existence is good. period. everything that exists is good.

and actually, evil itself doesn't exist. evil is defined as the absence of or the twisting of something which is good; ergo, non-existence is evil because it is the absence of a good. thankfully, non-existence doesn't exist because evil doesn't exist. but causing the absence of something which is good is an evil.
[/quote]

I could never understand how that worked with things like the suffering caused by natural disasters. Personal sin is the absence of good in humans, but what about something like Katrina? If you believe in objective good and evil then you'd have to believe that the suffering caused by Katrina is evil. But how does that fit in with your concept that evil is simply a lack of good?

[KnightofChrist]

The suffering caused by Katrina was a chastisement. Wars and natural disasters are chastisements because of the sin of Man. Before the fall of man death did not exist for man. Wars and natural disasters are effects of the fall.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1258243161' post='2002891']
The suffering caused by Katrina was a chastisement. Wars and natural disasters are chastisements because of the sin of Man. Before the fall of man death did not exist for man. Wars and natural disasters are effects of the fall.
[/quote]

Are you certain that natural disasters are an effect of the fall? I'm pretty sure that the dinosaurs went extinct because of a "natural disaster" long before God created man.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Didymus]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='14 November 2009 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1258238980' post='2002873']
I could never understand how that worked with things like the suffering caused by natural disasters. Personal sin is the absence of good in humans, but what about something like Katrina? If you believe in objective good and evil then you'd have to believe that the suffering caused by Katrina is evil. But how does that fit in with your concept that evil is simply a lack of good?
[/quote]

Suffering is not evil. Many unfortunately presume that suffering is the antithesis of joy and therefore it is evil. But it is not. It is as KoC stated merely the reality of original sin. Suffering in and of itself can and should be a joyful reality. (not that I'm speaking from personal experience I'll admit..)

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 November 2009 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1258244437' post='2002908']
Are you certain that natural disasters are an effect of the fall? I'm pretty sure that the dinosaurs went extinct because of a "natural disaster" long before God created man.
[/quote]

Did death exist before the fall of man? Did dinosaurs die? Think on that.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 07:44 PM' timestamp='1258245847' post='2002919']
Did death exist before the fall of man? Did dinosaurs die? Think on that.
[/quote]

Dinosaurs certainly died...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 November 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1258247363' post='2002942']
Dinosaurs certainly died...
[/quote]

Did death exist before the fall of man?

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1258247607' post='2002946']
Did death exist before the fall of man?
[/quote]

The man already said that dinosaurs died...

[Apotheoun]

I see no reason for the negative point being given to KofC for his comment. He simply asked a question.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='14 November 2009 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1258247981' post='2002952']
I see no reason for the negative point being given to KofC for his comment. He simply asked a question.
[/quote]

I agree.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='14 November 2009 - 08:13 PM' timestamp='1258247607' post='2002946']
Did death exist before the fall of man?
[/quote]

Human death did not exist before the fall.

[KnightofChrist]

Death did not exist before the fall of man.

[Apotheoun]

Scripture asserts that God is not the author of death. So the question is: How is this assertion to be understood?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='14 November 2009 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1258248065' post='2002956']
Human death did not exist before the fall.
[/quote]
That is the common modern way of understanding the scriptural texts, but the Church Fathers often assert that the corruption present in nature, which is experienced by animals as well as men, was also caused by the ancestral sin, and that man - as the priest of creation - has the duty to offer creation back to God in order for it to be sanctified. What are we to make of these patristic teachings?

Edited November 15, 2009 by Apotheoun