Is It Better To Be In Hell Or To Never Have Existed?

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='15 November 2009 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1258243161' post='2002891']
The suffering caused by Katrina was a chastisement. Wars and natural disasters are chastisements because of the sin of Man. Before the fall of man death did not exist for man. Wars and natural disasters are effects of the fall.
[/quote]

Unless I am interpreting this wrong it appears to be false. How often do natural disasters strike the poor and the devoutly faithful. The philippines my wife's native country is frequently hit by floods and volcanoes. Her relatives and avast majority of the country are devoutly Catholic. The rich and selfcentred are usually out of harms way. East Timor is about as Catholics you can get and has been subjected to the most horrible of inhumane acts since it's settlement by the Portuguese. I would say that man made and natural disasters are the work of the devil to try to break the faith.

With regard to hell being better than non-existence. People who choose hell have obviously not endured much pain. lets take for a moment the assumption that I am wrong and there is no life in Paradise after death. My second choice is definitely non existence. The idea of reincarnation terrifies me by the though of going through lives of pain and suffering over and over.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Mark of the Cross

[HisChildForever]

I would pick the "to never have existed."

[Apotheoun]

Everything God has created - as scripture says - is good, and so He will not allow it to fall into non-being.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1258324146' post='2003341']
Everything God has created - as scripture says - is good, and so He will not allow it to fall into non-being.
[/quote]

I didn't think that was the question. I read the question as "Would you rather be in Hell, or would you rather have never been alive in the first place?" Therefore, I would prefer non-creation over Hell. I know God won't make people non-exist.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 05:29 PM' timestamp='1258324146' post='2003341']
Everything God has created - as scripture says - is good, and so He will not allow it to fall into non-being.
[/quote]

Wrong. Animals were created by God and thus they are good too, however they have finite souls and "fall into non-being".



Did anyone ever answer the Dinosaur question?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 November 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1258324646' post='2003345']
Wrong. Animals were created by God and thus they are good too, however they have finite souls and "fall into non-being".[/quote]
Not according to St. Maximos the Confessor. The incarnation gives ever-being to the entire created order.

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 November 2009 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1258324646' post='2003345']
Did anyone ever answer the Dinosaur question?
[/quote]
Yes, several people have answered the question.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1258324385' post='2003343']
I didn't think that was the question. I read the question as "Would you rather be in Hell, or would you rather have never been alive in the first place?" Therefore, I would prefer non-creation over Hell. I know God won't make people non-exist.
[/quote]
Hell, according to the Fathers, is preferable to non-existence, because existence is a participation in the eternal being of God.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 November 2009 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1258324646' post='2003345']
Wrong. Animals were created by God and thus they are good too, however they have finite souls and "fall into non-being".



Did anyone ever answer the Dinosaur question?
[/quote]


Interesting point. That is how I understood an animals soul also, that it ceased to exist at death. I'll have to look some more on that.

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 05:39 PM' timestamp='1258324799' post='2003346']
Not according to St. Maximos the Confessor. The incarnation gives ever-being to the entire created order.
[/quote]

I don't know any Catholics, priests included, who believe animals have immortal souls. What Western theologian was it that said they only had finite souls? Aquinas?

Edited November 15, 2009 by OraProMe

[OraProMe]

Apo,

Where are the souls of deceased animals now then? They cannot earn heaven but cannot earn hell either.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 November 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1258325056' post='2003351']
Apo,

Where are the souls of deceased animals now then? They cannot earn heaven but cannot earn hell either.
[/quote]
They are in their source . . . the Logos. To paraphrase St. Maximos, the Logos is both one and many, for the many logoi (i.e., created beings) are the one Logos, and yet the one Logos is beyond all beings, for He is their cause. Everything that exists has its existence in the Logos (See Acts 17:28).

Edited November 15, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Here is what St. Maximos said about man (as opposed to all other beings): "When God brought into being natures endowed with intelligence and intellect He communicated to them, in His supreme goodness, four of the divine attributes by which He sustains, protects, and preserves created things. These attributes are being, eternal being, goodness and wisdom. Of the four He granted the first two, being and eternal being, to their essence, and the second two, goodness and wisdom, to their volitive faculty, so that what He is in His essence the creature may become by participation."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 November 2009 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1258324965' post='2003349']
I don't know any Catholics, priests included, who believe animals have immortal souls. What Western theologian was it that said they only had finite souls? Aquinas?
[/quote]
How many Eastern Catholic or Eastern Orthodox priests do you know?

No created being (man or animal) is innately immortal, for God alone is by nature immortal; instead, immorality for created beings is a gift of grace given by God through the incarnation (See St. Athanasios, [i]On the Incarnation of the Word[/i], nos. 3-10).

Edited November 15, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='OraProMe' date='15 November 2009 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1258325056' post='2003351']
They cannot earn heaven but cannot earn hell either.
[/quote]
Animals will exist eternally in the Logos fulfilling the goodness that is their proper nature.

Now certainly, an irrational being cannot be likened to God in the same way that a man can be, but that is not a form of punishment, for the being in question is good in its nature and will exist in God according to its logos (i.e., its proper purpose or end).

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1258324873' post='2003347']
Hell, according to the Fathers, is preferable to non-existence, because existence is a participation in the eternal being of God.
[/quote]

I would rather non-creation (or non-existence) than suffering an eternity in Hell.

Edited November 15, 2009 by HisChildForever

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1258327954' post='2003373']
I would rather non-creation (or non-existence) than suffering an eternity in Hell.
[/quote]
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because hell is salvation from non-existence, as St. John Chrysostom said.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 06:34 PM' timestamp='1258328092' post='2003375']
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, because hell is salvation from non-existence, as St. John Chrysostom said.


[/quote]

What would you prefer?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1258328233' post='2003376']
What would you prefer?
[/quote]
Hell, because existence is good by its very nature.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 06:37 PM' timestamp='1258328278' post='2003378']
Hell, because existence is good by its very nature.
[/quote]

I think it's easy to say that now, but if you were actually in Hell it'd be a different story.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 05:10 PM' timestamp='1258330243' post='2003388']
I think it's easy to say that now, but if you were actually in Hell it'd be a different story.
[/quote]
In the final analysis my liking it or not is irrelevant. God does not create junk, and so He will not allow anything that He has created to fall into non-being. Existence in hell is a form of salvation, which only became possible with the incarnation of the eternal Logos.