Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 All things are restored in Christ, for as St. Maximos the Confessor said in his treatise entitled, [i]Quaestiones ad Thalassium[/i] (PG 90:796BC): "The Church knows three [i]apokatastaseis[/i]. One is the [[i]apokatastasis[/i]] of everything according to the principle ([i]logos[/i]) of virtue; in this [i]apokatastasis[/i] one is restored who fulfills the principle of virtue in himself. The second is that of the whole [human nature] in the Resurrection. This is the [i]apokatastasis[/i] to incorruption and immortality. The third, in the oft-cited words of Gregory of Nyssa, is the [i]apokatastasis[/i] of the powers of the soul which, having lapsed into sin, are again restored to that condition in which they were created. For it is necessary that just as the entire nature of the flesh hopes in time to be taken up again into incorruption in the [i]apokatastasis[/i], so also the powers of the soul, having become distorted during the course of the ages had instilled in it a memory of evil, so that at the end of ages, not finding any rest, will come to God Who has no limit. And thus the distorted powers of the soul will be taken up into the primeval [i]apokatastasis[/i], into a merely discursive knowledge of, but not into the participation in, the good things [of God], where the Creator is known yet without being the cause of [their] sin."
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1258331185' post='2003398'] In the final analysis my liking it or not is irrelevant. God does not create junk, and so He will not allow anything that He has created to fall into non-being. Existence in hell is a form of salvation, which only became possible with the incarnation of the eternal Logos. [/quote] But the thread's question isn't asking if you would rather fall into non-being, it's asking about non-creation (never existing in the first place). Two entirely different things.
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1258332712' post='2003410'] But the thread's question isn't asking if you would rather fall into non-being, it's asking about non-creation (never existing in the first place). Two entirely different things. [/quote] I know, and my answer remains the same. To say that non-being would in any sense be preferable to being is ultimately to embrace Gnosticism and Manichaeism. Existing in hell is a grace, while non-existence is nothing. Edited November 16, 2009 by Apotheoun
ardillacid Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 So when Jesus said that it would have been better if Judas was never born he just forgot to say 'just kidding fellows he's having a grand time in hell'
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1258332810' post='2003411'] To say that non-being would in any sense be preferable to being is ultimately to embrace Gnosticism and Manichaeism. [/quote] I would rather be nothing than suffer the eternal torments of Hell. Not only because of the brutal pain, but because if I'm in Hell, that means I've rejected God. Therefore I would rather be nothing than be someone who rejected God.
KnightofChrist Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='notardillacid' date='15 November 2009 - 07:55 PM' timestamp='1258332926' post='2003414'] So when Jesus said that it would have been better if Judas was never born he just forgot to say 'just kidding fellows he's having a grand time in hell' [/quote] Unborn children don't go to hell. Judas likely did go to hell.
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='15 November 2009 - 07:58 PM' timestamp='1258333118' post='2003417'] Unborn children don't go to hell. Judas likely did go to hell. [/quote] That wasn't his point at all.
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='notardillacid' date='15 November 2009 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1258332926' post='2003414'] So when Jesus said that it would have been better if Judas was never born he just forgot to say 'just kidding fellows he's having a grand time in hell' [/quote] He was using hyperbole. Like when He said a person should cut of his hand if it makes him sin, etc.
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1258333049' post='2003416'] I would rather be nothing than suffer the eternal torments of Hell. Not only because of the brutal pain, but because if I'm in Hell, that means I've rejected God. Therefore I would rather be nothing than be someone who rejected God. [/quote] I guess it won't ever register with some people, but hell - according to the Fathers - is a form of salvation. God will not destroy, nor will He allow another to destroy, His creation.
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Hell is the salvation of those who failed to live the good during the wayfaring state, but who by grace in eternity shall know the good discursively (See St. Maximos above). Evil will be consumed in the fires of God's love, which will purify everything, so that God may be all in all. Edited November 16, 2009 by Apotheoun
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1258333369' post='2003424'] I guess it won't ever register with some people, but hell - according to the Fathers - is a form of salvation. [b]God will not destroy, nor will He allow another to destroy, His creation.[/b] [/quote] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up?
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1258333781' post='2003428'] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up? [/quote] Yes, it is the issue of the debate. Hell is (1) better than not having existed at all, or - for those who already exist - (2) being allowed to fall into non-existence. Thus, it is better to exist in hell than never to have existed at all. Edited November 16, 2009 by Apotheoun
KnightofChrist Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1258333781' post='2003428'] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up? [/quote] If the debate is truly about "Is It Better To Be In Hell Or To Never Have Existed?" Then his point has everything to do with this debate.
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 November 2009 - 08:11 PM' timestamp='1258333899' post='2003429'] Yes, it is the issue of the debate. [b]Hell is better than never having existed at all,[/b] or - for those who already exist - being allowed to fall into non-existence. Thus, it is better to exist in hell than never to have existed at all. [/quote] I thought the debate is just focused on the first part.
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:09 PM' timestamp='1258333781' post='2003428'] You know that's not the issue of this debate, so why do you keep bringing it up? [/quote] One of the things that you are not recognizing in this question is the notion that God could make a mistake. We do not choose to come into being, God makes that choice, and He is never wrong in His actions.
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:13 PM' timestamp='1258334012' post='2003431'] I thought the debate is just focused on the first part. [/quote] I have simply expanded the debate by answering the original question (and by doing so several times); while adding the point that once God gives existence to a being He will not allow it to be destroyed, and - of course - associated with this latter point is the fact that God does not make mistakes and so if something exists it does so because He desired it as a good that would help to bring about the fullness ([i]pleroma[/i]) of created reality.
HisChildForever Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 Too bad we can't ask the souls in Hell this question.
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 The section of the post on predestination (point no. 9) linked below, which I wrote a few years ago, should be helpful: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=34879&view=findpost&p=652378"][u]East and West[/u][/url]
Apotheoun Posted November 16, 2009 Posted November 16, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' date='15 November 2009 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1258334927' post='2003438'] Too bad we can't ask the souls in Hell this question. [/quote]
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