Now We're Hearing About Sexual Abuse Covered Up In Dublin Ireland

[southern california guy]

I'm sure everybody has already heard about the sex abuse cover ups in Ireland ( [url="http://http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/11/26/ireland.religion.abuse/index.html"]CNN Report[/url] ).

I guess it's surprising to me because I sort of assumed that most of sex abuse was here in the US -- and not all over the rest of the world. What is wrong with the Catholic church? Why do some Catholic priests molest children. I've heard that homosexuality is the main cause -- and I can buy that -- but why are there homosexual priests? Is it because priests are single -- unlike Protestant pastors and clergy who are usually married?

I dropped out of the Catholic church when I was living in Redmond Washington, near Seattle Washington -- where the Catholic church is very liberal and has a lot of homosexuals involved. And I got involved with a Protestant college group in Seattle (They called it "The In" and they met at University Presbyterian).

Then in California I went to the Baptist church in San Luis Obispo because my girlfriend was Baptist (Probably the nicest girl I ever dated.). And then I moved back up to the Sacramento area and finished a degree, in geology, at Sac State. At Sac State I was involved with "Campus Crusade for Christ", "Intervarsity Christian Fellowship", and "Student's For Life".

After Sacramento I moved up to Logan Utah -- thinking that I was moving to a more "conservative" state with a better group of people. But I moved back to California in 2001 after a Mormon guy (Cody Nielson) raped and killed a fifteen year old girl in Logan. He didn't really fit the "profile" (He was on his second marriage and had four kids). In fact Utah is called the "Married State" by the Mormons -- because almost everyone is married and has kids. However here's the really disturbing thing: the number of registered sex offenders in Utah is off the charts. You can check it out here: [url="http://www.familywatchdog.us/"]Family Watchdog[/url].

I live in Encinitas California (Pop 58014) and there are 22 registered sex offenders here. There are 86 in Logan Utah (Pop 42670). There are 209 in Provo Utah (Pop 101164). And there are 1061 registered sex offenders in Salt Lake City Utah (Pop 181698)! San Diego only has 541 with a population of 3,001,072.

So obviously just getting married doesn't fix everything. But most of the sex offenses in Utah are rape and murder of women and girls, and the sex offenses in the Catholic church -- I believe -- are towards young boys.

What is the solution??? Is there any?

Edited November 30, 2009 by southern california guy

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='southern california guy' date='29 November 2009 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1259551973' post='2011679']
I'm sure everybody has already heard about the sex abuse cover ups in Ireland ( [url="http://http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/11/26/ireland.religion.abuse/index.html"]CNN Report[/url] ).

I guess it's surprising to me because I sort of assumed that most of sex abuse was here in the US -- and not all over the rest of the world. What is wrong with the Catholic church? Why do some Catholic priests molest children. I've heard that homosexuality is the main cause -- and I can buy that -- but why are there homosexual priests? Is it because priests are single -- unlike Protestant pastors and clergy who are usually married?

I dropped out of the Catholic church when I was living in Redmond Washington, near Seattle Washington -- where the Catholic church is very liberal and has a lot of homosexuals involved. And I got involved with a Protestant college group in Seattle (They called it "The In" and they met at University Presbyterian).

Then in California I went to the Baptist church in San Luis Obispo because my girlfriend was Baptist (Probably the nicest girl I ever dated.). And then I moved back up to the Sacramento area and finished a degree, in geology, at Sac State. At Sac State I was involved with "Campus Crusade for Christ", "Intervarsity Christian Fellowship", and "Student's For Life".

After Sacramento I moved up to Logan Utah -- thinking that I was moving to a more "conservative" state with a better group of people. But I moved back to California in 2001 after a Mormon guy (Cody Nielson) raped and killed a fifteen year old girl in Logan. He didn't really fit the "profile" (He was on his second marriage and had four kids). In fact Utah is called the "Married State" by the Mormons -- because almost everyone is married and has kids. However here's the really disturbing thing: the number of registered sex offenders in Utah is off the charts. You can check it out here: [url="http://www.familywatchdog.us/"]Family Watchdog[/url].

I live in Encinitas California (Pop 58014) and there are 22 registered sex offenders here. There are 86 in Logan Utah (Pop 42670). There are 209 in Provo Utah (Pop 101164). And there are 1061 registered sex offenders in Salt Lake City Utah (Pop 181698)! San Diego only has 541 with a population of 3,001,072.

So obviously just getting married doesn't fix everything. But most of the sex offenses in Utah are rape and murder of women and girls, and the sex offenses in the Catholic church -- I believe -- are towards young boys.

What is the solution??? Is there any?
[/quote]
Sex abuse is everywhere and in all occupations. Statistically [not much comfort to those involved] you are safer with priests than people from many other occupations such as school teachers or even your own family. Most sex offenders are married men. 2% of catholic priests were involved in some sex scandal.
BTW San diego has over 900 registered.

[Nihil Obstat]

I have a feeling it's happening or has happened everywhere in the western world. Hopefully we can do a better job moving forward, because in this situation a lot of people failed quite egregiously at living up to their beliefs.

[southern california guy]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='29 November 2009 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1259552458' post='2011690']
Sex abuse is everywhere and in all occupations. Statistically [not much comfort to those involved] you are safer with priests than people from many other occupations such as school teachers or even your own family. Most sex offenders are married men. 2% of catholic priests were involved in some sex scandal.
BTW San diego has over 900 registered.
[/quote]

San Diego has over 900 registered sex offenders? I type in "San Diego California" on "Family Watchdog" and I only get 541. What database did you get the 900 from?

[Marie-Therese]

OK...

1. I don't believe it has anything to do with homosexuality. Just because a person is afflicted with same sex attractions does not mean that they are inclined to pederasty or pedophilia.

2. A church, ANY church, is a logical target for a sexual predator. Inherent trust, emotional connection, and open access to plenty of children. Doesn't take a huge leap in logic to understand the appeal. Not to mention the fact that children could easily be manipulated into believing that because an abuser was a member of the clergy that there would be some Divine punishment for disobedience. It's a complex dynamic.

3. It seems to be more prevalent in the Church because when a priest is a molester it makes the news, and when a cover up of molestation by Church authorities is exposed, it's even bigger news. Think about it. Father so-and-so has his face on the 6 o'clock news. Bubba who has molested a child in his trailer in Hoboken never gets mentioned. No aspersions should be inferred about people named Bubba, trailers, or Hoboken, btw. LOL

4. I understand the desire to seek out a safe community to live in, but the sad truth of the world is that you aren't going to find one. Sure, some are better than others, but there is no corner of our world left untouched by evil.

5. One of the best quotes I've heard on this topic came from Fr. Corapi, who was discussing the topic with his goddaughter. She said, "Letting pedophiles get married would solve the problem? If they can't keep one vow, why should you think they would keep any other?" Marriage has nothing to do with it. Sure, priests are lonely sometimes. However, loneliness doesn't make a person molest children. That is an inherent disorder that marriage won't magically erase. Pedophiles are pedophiles, no matter their particular line of work. It just so happens that the offense is just so much more morally egregious when a man of God is the perpetrator.

That being said, I think the Church is doing its utmost to flush this moral cancer from the Body of Christ. Prayers for all who are affected by it.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='29 November 2009 - 08:56 PM' timestamp='1259556960' post='2011746']
OK...

1. I don't believe it has anything to do with homosexuality. Just because a person is afflicted with same sex attractions does not mean that they are inclined to pederasty or pedophilia.

2. A church, ANY church, is a logical target for a sexual predator. Inherent trust, emotional connection, and open access to plenty of children. Doesn't take a huge leap in logic to understand the appeal. Not to mention the fact that children could easily be manipulated into believing that because an abuser was a member of the clergy that there would be some Divine punishment for disobedience. It's a complex dynamic.

3. It seems to be more prevalent in the Church because when a priest is a molester it makes the news, and when a cover up of molestation by Church authorities is exposed, it's even bigger news. Think about it. Father so-and-so has his face on the 6 o'clock news. Bubba who has molested a child in his trailer in Hoboken never gets mentioned. No aspersions should be inferred about people named Bubba, trailers, or Hoboken, btw. LOL

4. I understand the desire to seek out a safe community to live in, but the sad truth of the world is that you aren't going to find one. Sure, some are better than others, but there is no corner of our world left untouched by evil.

5. One of the best quotes I've heard on this topic came from Fr. Corapi, who was discussing the topic with his goddaughter. She said, "Letting pedophiles get married would solve the problem? If they can't keep one vow, why should you think they would keep any other?" Marriage has nothing to do with it. Sure, priests are lonely sometimes. However, loneliness doesn't make a person molest children. That is an inherent disorder that marriage won't magically erase. Pedophiles are pedophiles, no matter their particular line of work. It just so happens that the offense is just so much more morally egregious when a man of God is the perpetrator.

That being said, I think the Church is doing its utmost to flush this moral cancer from the Body of Christ. Prayers for all who are affected by it.
[/quote]

agreed. i think it has much more to do with pedophiles being attracted to the position of power within the church than anything the church does making the pedophiles. the covering up stuff(when it happens) is inexcusable however.

while i dont objectively agree with the rules on celibacy for priests, those are the rules for the job, if you cant handle them dont apply!!

[Era Might]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='29 November 2009 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1259556960' post='2011746']1. I don't believe it has anything to do with homosexuality.[/quote]
I'm not sure about that. Obviously, not every homosexual person has pederastic tendencies. But I do think that homosexuality and pederasty can be related disorders. Homosexuality may sometimes be caused by psychological issues from a parent-child relationship, and homosexuality may also sometimes be a symptom of frustrated maturity. I can see how those psychological issues might also give a person pederastic tendencies. I'm not making any sweeping psychological claims, but I am inclined to believe, just based on common sense, that there can be a connection between homosexuality and pederasty.

[Cruce]

[quote name='Era Might' date='30 November 2009 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1259558078' post='2011767']
I'm not sure about that. Obviously, not every homosexual person has pederastic tendencies. But I do think that homosexuality and pederasty can be related disorders. Homosexuality may sometimes be caused by psychological issues from a parent-child relationship, and homosexuality may also sometimes be a symptom of frustrated maturity. I can see how those psychological issues might also give a person pederastic tendencies. I'm not making any sweeping psychological claims, but I am inclined to believe, just based on common sense, that there can be a connection between homosexuality and pederasty.
[/quote]


But the majority of pedophiles are married.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Cruce' date='30 November 2009 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1259559086' post='2011782']
But the majority of pedophiles are married.
[/quote]
I'm not saying that there is an exclusive connection between homosexuality and pederasty. I'm just saying that I think there can be a connection between homosexuality and pederasty.

[Jesus_lol]

well i dont think they can cause each other, but of course they could coexist in a person.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='30 November 2009 - 12:38 AM' timestamp='1259559535' post='2011789']
well i dont think they can cause each other, but of course they could coexist in a person.
[/quote]
I wouldn't say that they "cause each other." I would say, rather, that I think they can be caused by the same psychological issues.

[Cruce]

[quote name='Era Might' date='30 November 2009 - 12:41 AM' timestamp='1259559671' post='2011791']
I wouldn't say that they "cause each other." I would say, rather, that I think they can be caused by the same psychological issues.
[/quote]

There are a lot of factors deciding why anyone is attracted to anyone else. Those factors for homosexuality and pedophilia can't be identical because then heterosexual pedophiles wouldn't exist, let alone be the majority. But I agree, there could be some psychological commonalities between homosexuality and pedophilia but, given the statistics, I doubt it's anything substantial.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Cruce' date='30 November 2009 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1259560574' post='2011796']
There are a lot of factors deciding why anyone is attracted to anyone else. Those factors for homosexuality and pedophilia can't be identical because then heterosexual pedophiles wouldn't exist, let alone be the majority. But I agree, there could be some psychological commonalities between homosexuality and pedophilia but, given the statistics, I doubt it's anything substantial.
[/quote]
I think that a disorder resulting from a parent-child relationship is one of the main causes of homosexuality. For example, a boy who does not have affection from his father, seeks it in other men. I think this is a significant psychological issue, because it is not only about gender, but also about age. I don't think that the potential connection between homosexuality and pederasty is insignificant. Of course, sexual disorders are going to have different causes in specific cases, so you cannot generalize. But I do think there can be a significant connection between homosexuality and pederasty.

As far as heterosexual pederasts, I think there can be connections with other sexual disorders (e.g., pornography addiction).

The main point, I think, is that sexual disorders are interrelated. I'm not saying that homosexuality and heterosexuality can be the only interrelated disorders.

[Sojourner]

A great treatment on this topic is George Weigel's "The Courage to be Catholic." He persuasively argues that the crisis (in the U.S. at least) was primarily homosexual in nature, and that the pedophilia aspect of it was played up by the news media while the homosexual aspect was played down.

According to Weigel, the bigger picture, though, is that it was a crisis of fidelity. Such a problem transcends national boundaries.

The book is a great resource. I highly recommend it.

[Antigonos]

Some years ago I attended a therapy group which included a number of clergymen. One, who was Episcopalian and married, was having problems with what he perceived as his bisexuality. He was also black and married to the daughter of a Southern army colonel. So he definitely had a multiplicity of issues. Another was a former Episcopalian priest, who had taken a vow of celibacy early in his religious life and had come to see that he had chosen this way as a means of denying his homosexuality. After leaving the priesthood, he had been in a stable homosexual relationship for decades. He was adamant that a certain kind of man in denial was very common in the clergy.

There isn't any doubt in my mind that, as someone else posted, the position of authority [and morality] that the clergy has makes it easy for them to abuse children if they already have a predeliction that makes them go that way. There have been recent scandals in the Orthodox Jewish community, too, and rabbis are universally married. Further, if boys too young to have a clear idea of their own sexuality are sent to seminaries and indoctrinated that they must live celibate lives, they often cannot deal with their desires when their hormones kick in. Until fairly recently, in some places boys as young as 12 were expected to be able to choose celibacy for their entire lives, which is unreal and a recipe for disaster. The Episcopal Church in the US was quite progressive -- already in the 60s they sent troubled clergy to therapy -- but the Catholic Church has lagged behind.

Irish culture is quite sexually repressed. Both men and women tend to marry late, there is a quite large number which never marry at all, and the influence of the Church is very pervasive.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='30 November 2009 - 05:06 PM' timestamp='1259590015' post='2011903']
Some years ago I attended a therapy group which included a number of clergymen. One, who was Episcopalian and married, was having problems with what he perceived as his bisexuality. He was also black and married to the daughter of a Southern army colonel. So he definitely had a multiplicity of issues. Another was a former Episcopalian priest, who had taken a vow of celibacy early in his religious life and had come to see that he had chosen this way as a means of denying his homosexuality. After leaving the priesthood, he had been in a stable homosexual relationship for decades. He was adamant that a certain kind of man in denial was very common in the clergy.

There isn't any doubt in my mind that, as someone else posted, the position of authority [and morality] that the clergy has makes it easy for them to abuse children if they already have a predeliction that makes them go that way. There have been recent scandals in the Orthodox Jewish community, too, and rabbis are universally married. Further, if boys too young to have a clear idea of their own sexuality are sent to seminaries and indoctrinated that they must live celibate lives, they often cannot deal with their desires when their hormones kick in. Until fairly recently, in some places boys as young as 12 were expected to be able to choose celibacy for their entire lives, which is unreal and a recipe for disaster. The Episcopal Church in the US was quite progressive -- already in the 60s they sent troubled clergy to therapy -- but the Catholic Church has lagged behind.

Irish culture is quite sexually repressed. Both men and women tend to marry late, there is a quite large number which never marry at all, and the influence of the Church is very pervasive.
[/quote]

[Antigonos]

Sorry about the multiple posting[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img]

[JimR-OCDS]

Dr Phillip Jenkins, a non-Catholic professor of religious studies at Pennsylvania State University,
did a study on the issue of priest sexual abuse, about 5 years ago.

I his study, he found that sex abuse by Catholic priest, was about 1.8% of the total population of Catholic Priest. [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html[/url]

Note, this link is a reprint of the original article which was in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, and not
something Catholic Education spun.


Most of the sex abuse was that by homosexual priest, with young teenage boys, not prepubescent children. Many of the teen boys themselves, were exploring their own homosexual leanings.


The other issue, why did Bishops supposedly cover up, and transfer priest who were caught in sexual abuse?

Because, 20 and 30 years ago, this is the way the psychologist and law enforcement officials, along with the parents of the victims, preferred to handle sex abuse, not just by priest, but by anyone.

The negative stigma a 15 year old would suffer among his peers, from the knowledge that he was sexually molested by a priest, was worse than the perpetrator would receive in prison.

Victims of rape, were not protected by the now "Rape Shield," law, back when these cases took place. Sexually abuse victims certainly were not, even today.

The real motivation for the majority of lawsuits today, is money. The victims who bring the lawsuits against the Church, do so, not because the Church hid the story, but because they think the Church has tons of money. If it was because the Church hid the story, why not sue their own parents, for it is they, who most often didn't want the story making it into the papers, because of the negative stigma, their child would suffer from.

The other issue is pedophilia itself. Fr Benedict Groschel, who is a clinical psychologist stated in his book, that the term pedophilia wasn't even in psychology text books 30 years ago. The condition was treated as a temporary disorder, that could be cured. Today we know different, but for the professionals in the field 25 plus years ago, they did not.

Was there abuse... you bet their was. Did the Church make mistakes in handling the cases...yes and especially as in the more recent cases like that of Cardinal Law, former Bishop of the Boston Archdioceses. He not only hid priest abuse cases, but he wrote a glowing letter of approval to get known pedophile out of his dioceses and transferred out to California.

The bottom line here is, the Church, in the USA, handled sex abuse cases according to the protocol, recommended by the professionals at that time. Other institutions followed the same suit, but because they Catholic Church is who she is, the scandal made the headlines while others were kept silent.


Jim

[cmotherofpirl]

Yes so much of it is clearly about money. Our diocese here [Pittsburgh] was sued by people who claimed the abuse happened 40 years ago and the priest had been dead 20 YEARS!!!! That kind of croutons is ridiculous. If you haven't dealt with it 40 years, all the money in the world isn't gonna help you now.

[CatherineM]

One of the priests that caused a big pay out in St. Pete was one we got from Boston that had originally come from Ireland. At some point those who passed the buck need to be held accountable for some of the mess.