Now We're Hearing About Sexual Abuse Covered Up In Dublin Ireland

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 November 2009 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1259591164' post='2011910']
Dr Phillip Jenkins, a non-Catholic professor of religious studies at Pennsylvania State University,
did a study on the issue of priest sexual abuse, about 5 years ago.

I his study, he found that sex abuse by Catholic priest, was about 1.8% of the total population of Catholic Priest. [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html"]http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html[/url]

Note, this link is a reprint of the original article which was in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, and not
something Catholic Education spun.


Most of the sex abuse was that by homosexual priest, with young teenage boys, not prepubescent children. Many of the teen boys themselves, were exploring their own homosexual leanings.


The other issue, why did Bishops supposedly cover up, and transfer priest who were caught in sexual abuse?

Because, 20 and 30 years ago, this is the way the psychologist and law enforcement officials, along with the parents of the victims, preferred to handle sex abuse, not just by priest, but by anyone.

The negative stigma a 15 year old would suffer among his peers, from the knowledge that he was sexually molested by a priest, was worse than the perpetrator would receive in prison.

Victims of rape, were not protected by the now "Rape Shield," law, back when these cases took place. Sexually abuse victims certainly were not, even today.

The real motivation for the majority of lawsuits today, is money. The victims who bring the lawsuits against the Church, do so, not because the Church hid the story, but because they think the Church has tons of money. If it was because the Church hid the story, why not sue their own parents, for it is they, who most often didn't want the story making it into the papers, because of the negative stigma, their child would suffer from.

The other issue is pedophilia itself. Fr Benedict Groschel, who is a clinical psychologist stated in his book, that the term pedophilia wasn't even in psychology text books 30 years ago. The condition was treated as a temporary disorder, that could be cured. Today we know different, but for the professionals in the field 25 plus years ago, they did not.

Was there abuse... you bet their was. Did the Church make mistakes in handling the cases...yes and especially as in the more recent cases like that of Cardinal Law, former Bishop of the Boston Archdioceses. He not only hid priest abuse cases, but he wrote a glowing letter of approval to get known pedophile out of his dioceses and transferred out to California.

The bottom line here is, the Church, in the USA, handled sex abuse cases according to the protocol, recommended by the professionals at that time. Other institutions followed the same suit, but because they Catholic Church is who she is, the scandal made the headlines while others were kept silent.


Jim
[/quote]

Wow. Thank you for that; the most precise and concise explanation I have ever seen on this issue.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 November 2009 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1259591164' post='2011910']
Dr Phillip Jenkins, a non-Catholic professor of religious studies at Pennsylvania State University,
did a study on the issue of priest sexual abuse, about 5 years ago.

I his study, he found that sex abuse by Catholic priest, was about 1.8% of the total population of Catholic Priest. [url="http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0534.html"]http://www.catholice...ion/re0534.html[/url]

I think there is no reliable way to know how much abuse there was and is; many people, both the priests and the victims, would hardly admit to it.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='30 November 2009 - 12:56 AM' timestamp='1259556960' post='2011746']
OK...
That being said, I think the Church is doing its utmost to flush this moral cancer from the Body of Christ. Prayers for all who are affected by it.
[/quote]Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...

Edited December 1, 2009 by Anomaly

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
Do we know absolutely for sure that they did not?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
kid,
Actually, that's been done.

Don't forget, it's the state who lets them out to offend again. Go tell Jessica Lunsford's family how great the government handles sex offenders.

And we all noticed the straw man.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='29 November 2009 - 11:56 PM' timestamp='1259556960' post='2011746']
OK...

1. I don't believe it has anything to do with homosexuality. Just because a person is afflicted with same sex attractions does not mean that they are inclined to pederasty or pedophilia.

2. A church, ANY church, is a logical target for a sexual predator. Inherent trust, emotional connection, and open access to plenty of children. Doesn't take a huge leap in logic to understand the appeal. Not to mention the fact that children could easily be manipulated into believing that because an abuser was a member of the clergy that there would be some Divine punishment for disobedience. It's a complex dynamic.

3. It seems to be more prevalent in the Church because when a priest is a molester it makes the news, and when a cover up of molestation by Church authorities is exposed, it's even bigger news. Think about it. Father so-and-so has his face on the 6 o'clock news. Bubba who has molested a child in his trailer in Hoboken never gets mentioned. No aspersions should be inferred about people named Bubba, trailers, or Hoboken, btw. LOL

4. I understand the desire to seek out a safe community to live in, but the sad truth of the world is that you aren't going to find one. Sure, some are better than others, but there is no corner of our world left untouched by evil.

5. One of the best quotes I've heard on this topic came from Fr. Corapi, who was discussing the topic with his goddaughter. She said, "Letting pedophiles get married would solve the problem? If they can't keep one vow, why should you think they would keep any other?" Marriage has nothing to do with it. Sure, priests are lonely sometimes. However, loneliness doesn't make a person molest children. That is an inherent disorder that marriage won't magically erase. Pedophiles are pedophiles, no matter their particular line of work. It just so happens that the offense is just so much more morally egregious when a man of God is the perpetrator.

That being said, I think the Church is doing its utmost to flush this moral cancer from the Body of Christ. Prayers for all who are affected by it.
[/quote]
The John Jay study showed that 81% of the clerical abuse was of boys, not girls, and the great majority involved boys who were past the age of puberty.
Thus, most of the abuse was homosexual in nature, rather than pedophilia, which involves sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children.

This abuse the increase in homosexuality in seminaries starting in the 1960s.
(And lest I get jumped on, I'm not claiming most homosexuals abuse teenage boys, simply that most of the abuse was homosexual.)

The problem has nothing to do with celibacy. Celibacy does not cause normal "straight" men to molest boys.
The problem is young men entering the seminary with pre-existing sexual disorders, and the growth of a homosexual subculture in seminaries.

Of course, the root problem is a lack of holiness, and a decline in the priesthood being seen as a desirable option. When many good manly men accept the call to holy priesthood, there's no room in the seminaries for the creeps.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
What exactly do you think they should have done rather than follow the advice of the best experts available to them at the time?

[little_miss_late]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 06:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
\ However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively.
[/quote]

Not in the public schools I attended.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Winchester' date='01 December 2009 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1259683888' post='2012509']
kid,
Actually, that's been done.

Don't forget, it's the state who lets them out to offend again. Go tell Jessica Lunsford's family how great the government handles sex offenders.

And we all noticed the straw man.
[/quote]



When I was in high school one of our coaches was confronted by school authorities because of complaints by several girls that he threatened them with F's if they did not sleep with him. Many girls did, unfortunately, but a few brave ones reported him. I felt so sorry for his wife, because she was also a teacher at the school and pregnant when this happened.

He was transferred to another school outside the district. Yep, a 'clear, moral and effective' way of dealing with sexual predators.

No one here, or, I daresay, anywhere else would dispute that the instances of abuse inside the Church were often handled poorly. The issue of sex abuse is not neatly encapsulated by statistics and taglines on news broadcasts, and it involves a lot of complex psychological and ethical repercussions. Were mistakes made by the Church? Yes, of course. Tell me, though, how many cases were handled appropriately? Do you hear about THAT on the news? Nope. It doesn't sell.

Besides, if you are looking to the public school system in the US for an example of what is 'clear, moral or effective' then you're barking up the wrong tree.

[add]

[i]The Code of Canon Law stipulates that priests involved in sexualabuse cases must be “punished with just punishments, not excludingexpulsion from clerical state”[5]. The American Bishops Conferenceissued in 2002 “essential norms for diocesan/eparchial policies dealingwith allegations of sexual abuse of minors by priests or deacons”. Theguidelines mention among others that “in case of sufficient evidencethe bishop will withdraw the accused from exercising the ministry,impose or prohibit residence in a given place or territory ... pendingthe outcome of the process.” [/i]

Let's face it! the Catholic Church is a big target with bigpockets. Most Protestant churches are individual corporations. In theCatholic Church, the diocese is the corporation, so it has a big bankaccount. When legal action is involved, the media focus on dollaramounts, and the Catholic Church has deep pockets because of itsfinancial structure.[b]That does NOT excuse the behavior of our priests nor does it makethe activity less criminal or less of a sin. However, it does present adifferent view of the problem than that which is generally perceived bythe public![/b]
Someone was very harsh on one site and said how he would never enter aCatholic Church or allow his children to...because of the "priestabuse" situation.
I would asked him if he would ever allow his childrenthen to enter a public school (personally, I home-schooled to protect my children) or if he felt that the entire"philosophy" behind public school systems was wrong...
He couldn'tbelieve that the problem wasn't just in the Catholic Church - but ashas been pointed out here - is a Human problem...that crosses over manydifferent areas.
He wanted a specific example and I said to justtype in the name of any city in the United States and then the words"teacher accused of sexual abuse".

All of that being saidthough - It is a problem that "shouldn't exist" and has caused muchgrief for people who share our faith and even more problems for thosewho don't - and who are still trying to understand the Catholic Faith. Rather than trying to "defend" things - everything and anything must bedone to correct this.
I am glad - to some extent- that these things have been brought into the light.
Therecan be no more hiding of these situations or trying to move priestsfrom one parish to another....and that is a good thing.

source: [url="http://www.ncregister.com/daily/vatican_sets_record_straight_on_sexual_abuse/"]the link[/url]

[MithLuin]

[b]Socrates[/b], the word you are looking for is [i][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty]pederasty[/url][/i] - it describes a sexual relationship between a man and a post-pubescent teenage boy. When the man is an authority figure and the teenage boy is below the age of consent, this is clearly a crime.


[b]Anomaly[/b] wasn't just referring to the behavior of the Church in the 1960s, though. I agree that if sex abuse was something no one talked about or did anything about at that time, then there wasn't much in place for dealing with that situation. The Church was, unfortunately, a product of the times. My father knew a woman in college who was raped by multiple men after going to her boyfriend's house. When the police questioned her, they immediately picked up on the detail that [i]she[/i] went [i]there[/i]. The officer explained (compassionately, but still) that if this went to court, she would be painted as a silly sally by the defense. This was around 1970 in Detroit. Speaking out certainly took a lot of courage for the victims, and winning justice was an uphill battle. And that was just a 'normal' case of rape. Now imagine the accused is someone 'respected' by the community, and the backlash is even worse - much worse.

But the Irish bishops first shared information (on 17 abusive priests) with the civil authorities in 1995. 1995 is not 1975. I'm pretty sure the civil authorities were [i]asking[/i] for the information before then, and at least [i]some[/i] people knew there was a real problem that wasn't being dealt with.

I understand trying to handle things quietly, avoiding a scandal, etc. But only if you actually *deal* with the problem, and get the priest out of parishes. [I realize back in the day everyone thought 'treatment' would work...but when it didn't....] Certainly, people could have easily been unaware of the scope of the problem (even the bishops who were supposed to be in charge). And surely a good number of people thought the victims were lying. (Think about it - 1980s or earlier.) A traditional Church discipline for a troublesome priest was to ship him off to a monastery for at least a sabbatical, if not an extended stay. It serves the practical purpose of removing him from ministry. I don't know if this was tried in Ireland at all.

But...pretending a problem doesn't exist and ignoring victims is very bad, and it is reasonable that people should be upset to learn that the Irish church dealt with the problem in this way (apparently with the support of the Vatican, too).


Unfortunately, child sexual abuse is [i]very[/i] common. My sister was an ER nurse (only for a short time, too) and saw lots of kids who had been abused. IIRC, the most common perpetrator was mom's boyfriend.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='01 December 2009 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1259726143' post='2012919']

I understand trying to handle things quietly, avoiding a scandal, etc. But only if you actually *deal* with the problem, and get the priest out of parishes. [I realize back in the day everyone thought 'treatment' would work...but when it didn't....] Certainly, people could have easily been unaware of the scope of the problem (even the bishops who were supposed to be in charge). And surely a good number of people thought the victims were lying. (Think about it - 1980s or earlier.) A traditional Church discipline for a troublesome priest was to ship him off to a monastery for at least a sabbatical, if not an extended stay. It serves the practical purpose of removing him from ministry. I don't know if this was tried in Ireland at all.

[/quote]
One of the issues that has been repeatedly raised is that some of the abuse issues came to the bishops attention through the confessional.

[MithLuin]

That does of course tie his hands.

But if there are records that are being made public now, I have to imagine that there was also information unrelated to sacramental confessions. Those wouldn't have been written down or recorded in any way. I don't know what a bishop is supposed to do when a victim makes an accusation and he knows it is true [i]because[/i] of information shared under the seal of confession. But when there are reports from multiple victims...well, certainly a bishop would have reason to act.



Oh, and as for 'silly sally' in my post, that was a fiddler issue. The police officer was referring to a disreputable woman.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MithLuin' date='01 December 2009 - 10:55 PM' timestamp='1259726143' post='2012919']
[b]Socrates[/b], the word you are looking for is [i][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty]pederasty[/url][/i] - it describes a sexual relationship between a man and a post-pubescent teenage boy. When the man is an authority figure and the teenage boy is below the age of consent, this is clearly a crime.


[b]Anomaly[/b] wasn't just referring to the behavior of the Church in the 1960s, though.
. . .
[/quote]
Pederasty is a sub-category of homosexual behavior. From the wikipedia link you gave: "Pederasty is the archetypal example of male age-structured homosexuality."
All pederasty is homosexual, though not all homosexuals are pederasts.

I was responding to the common claim that the priestly sexual abuse "had nothing to do with homosexuality," which is clearly false, given the facts.

I'm sorry, I was having trouble with the keyboard yesterday. The third line in my post should have read: "This abuse followed the increase in homosexuality in seminaries starting in the 1960s." In other words, since the 60s, there was an increase in the number of homosexuals admitted to seminaries, and following this, there was an epidemic of priestly pederasty.

People argue by saying that "pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality," yet most of the cases were [i]not[/i] true pedophilia - abuse of prepubescent children - but homosexual pederasty.

Blaming this pederasty on celibacy is absurd.
If, as is supposed, the priests in question were normal "straight" men bound by vows of celibacy but just unable to control their raging hormones, and seeking young vulnerable victims as outlets for their lust, teenage [i]girls[/i] would make up a much higher percentage of the abuse victims.
Yet the evidence is otherwise; the vast majority were boys, not girls, and not pre-pubescent children.

However, it is not politically correct to suggest that there is anything at all wrong with homosexuality, but it is politically correct to blame the Catholic Church and its disciplines.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 07:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
But you see that is EXACTLY what the school districts have always done. If you said one word against the teacher you were facing an automatic lawsuit AND the wrath of the treachers unions.

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='Socrates' date='02 December 2009 - 06:32 PM' timestamp='1259796732' post='2013388']
Pederasty is a sub-category of homosexual behavior. From the wikipedia link you gave: "Pederasty is the archetypal example of male age-structured homosexuality."
All pederasty is homosexual, though not all homosexuals are pederasts.

I was responding to the common claim that the priestly sexual abuse "had nothing to do with homosexuality," which is clearly false, given the facts.

I'm sorry, I was having trouble with the keyboard yesterday. The third line in my post should have read: "This abuse followed the increase in homosexuality in seminaries starting in the 1960s." In other words, since the 60s, there was an increase in the number of homosexuals admitted to seminaries, and following this, there was an epidemic of priestly pederasty.

People argue by saying that "pedophilia has nothing to do with homosexuality," yet most of the cases were [i]not[/i] true pedophilia - abuse of prepubescent children - but homosexual pederasty.

Blaming this pederasty on celibacy is absurd.
If, as is supposed, the priests in question were normal "straight" men bound by vows of celibacy but just unable to control their raging hormones, and seeking young vulnerable victims as outlets for their lust, teenage [i]girls[/i] would make up a much higher percentage of the abuse victims.
Yet the evidence is otherwise; the vast majority were boys, not girls, and not pre-pubescent children.

However, it is not politically correct to suggest that there is anything at all wrong with homosexuality, but it is politically correct to blame the Catholic Church and its disciplines.
[/quote]

+1.

I agree fully, and I think my initial comment should have been more significantly fleshed out. Obviously pederasty is a direct result of homosexuality in terms of sexual action. However, what I should have stated more clearly is that the sexual abuse of children and prepubescents is not intrinsically an outshoot of someone who suffers from SSA. As you said, all pederasty is homosexual while not all homosexuals are pederasts. That is more where I was trying to go...that there is a perception of an automatic assignation of 'child abuser' to someone who has SSA, which of course is not true. However, you are correct in your core argument that it has to do with a primary degradation of holiness which leads to these issues.

Thank you for that post, it allowed me to responsibly clarify my initial post.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='03 December 2009 - 12:14 AM' timestamp='1259813691' post='2013590']
But you see that is EXACTLY what the school districts have always done. If you said one word against the teacher you were facing an automatic lawsuit AND the wrath of the treachers unions.
[/quote]
I know otherwise, having numerous family and friends participating in and working within the 8th largest school district in the US, as well as family that was Superintendents of Schools in a major midwest city. That is/was not was always done, especially when it got elevated. I can understand a parish priest being reluctant to blow the whistle on a fellow assoc. pastor, or vis-versa. However, once it got to a Bishop or Cardinal, the level of responsiblity, obligation, and understanding as being higher in the managment protocol is much different.

And winnie, the straw man is yours, comparing John Couey and the Lumsford tragedy to the systemic coverups in the Church. Couey was not supposed to be living where he was, he violated the laws and had family help cover up for him. The Jessica Lumsford act brought penalties and liablities to those who aided predators avoid the current reporting laws, as well as made the tracking and reporting of predators more strict. Couey viloated the governemt rules. The Church did not even have the basic rules in place, but Bishops violated common sense and even the minimal following of the laws. They put the general reputation of the Church above the damage being done to individuals. Their lack put the Church at an even a poorer position and opened them up to the tremendous liability instead of doint the 'right thing' by the Church, the parishioners, and the victims.

And as far as whether or not it's homosexual, pedastry, or hetero, it's all the exact same thing. Keep your genitals to yourself if you're not married, sworn to celibacy, or in a position of authority. Period.

Edited December 4, 2009 by Anomaly

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='04 December 2009 - 09:14 AM' timestamp='1259936079' post='2014319']
And winnie, the straw man is yours, comparing John Couey and the Lumsford tragedy to the systemic coverups in the Church. Couey was not supposed to be living where he was, he violated the laws and had family help cover up for him. The Jessica Lumsford act brought penalties and liablities to those who aided predators avoid the current reporting laws, as well as made the tracking and reporting of predators more strict. Couey viloated the governemt rules. The Church did not even have the basic rules in place, but Bishops violated common sense and even the minimal following of the laws. They put the general reputation of the Church above the damage being done to individuals. Their lack put the Church at an even a poorer position and opened them up to the tremendous liability instead of doint the 'right thing' by the Church, the parishioners, and the victims.

And as far as whether or not it's homosexual, pedastry, or hetero, it's all the exact same thing. Keep your genitals to yourself if you're not married, sworn to celibacy, or in a position of authority. Period.
[/quote]
The analogy is fine. The state does the same thing as everyone else. Schools move accused sexual predators around. The state lets them out and pretends that a monitoring program is a magical elixir. This is human nature. You want to present the church as worse when really it did the same thing collectively that everyone else does.

[alleros]

Speaking from Ireland.. What you quote is the "party line " here now; and it is not acceptable.

Yes, this kind of abuse is in every part of society; but surely far worse coming from THE CHURCH.

Even one child abused?

And see the "Canadian Holocaust" and the work done by Kevin Annett there.

We all need to be above reproach if we claim to be in Jesus.

What is the true scandal here is that the hierachy sanctioned more and more abuse by the cover ups, and there is furore here now in every part of society.

For good coverage, see a site run by Irish priests.

[url="http://www.clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/"]http://www.clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/[/url]

Because of the total power the Church has here, state and the gardai deferred to the.

The Church here, sadly, is being seen to be rotten to the very core and many have totally lost trust in it now.

Ireland is a very small country, only 6 million, and 96 % Roman catholic. Even the priests who did not abuse knew what was going on, and the Bishops covered up.

As they did with the institutional abuse the Ryan report found earlier this year. Religious Orders torturing children in their care.

It is a very intense abuse at every level; so many children damaged and so many lives left in tatters, so that hardly an Irish family has been left unscathed.

Academic theories of why and how and what this is are not the issue here; so many would have been protected had the Bishops acted as Shepherds should. Instead they have behaved like ravening wolves.

So now the Church here is in tatters and divided and torn. By its own actions.

And now also the demand is out for every diocese to be subjected to the same investigation as Dublin has seen; and this will be done now and layer after layer of abuse uncovered.

And still the complacency we hear; well, it was only a few... Not true and so misleading. The heart of Jesus weeps and aches here.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='29 November 2009 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1259552458' post='2011690']
Sex abuse is everywhere and in all occupations. Statistically [not much comfort to those involved] you are safer with priests than people from many other occupations such as school teachers or even your own family. Most sex offenders are married men. 2% of catholic priests were involved in some sex scandal.
BTW San diego has over 900 registered.
[/quote]

[alleros]

Speaking from Ireland.. What you quote is the "party line " here now; and it is not acceptable.

Yes, this kind of abuse is in every part of society; but surely far worse coming from THE CHURCH.

Even one child abused?

And see the "Canadian Holocaust" and the work done by Kevin Annett there.

We all need to be above reproach if we claim to be in Jesus.

What is the true scandal here is that the hierachy sanctioned more and more abuse by the cover ups, and there is furore here now in every part of society.

For good coverage, see a site run by Irish priests.

[url="http://www.clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/"]http://www.clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/[/url]

Because of the total power the Church has here, state and the gardai deferred to the.

The Church here, sadly, is being seen to be rotten to the very core and many have totally lost trust in it now.

Ireland is a very small country, only 6 million, and 96 % Roman catholic. Even the priests who did not abuse knew what was going on, and the Bishops covered up.

As they did with the institutional abuse the Ryan report found earlier this year. Religious Orders torturing children in their care.

It is a very intense abuse at every level; so many children damaged and so many lives left in tatters, so that hardly an Irish family has been left unscathed.

Academic theories of why and how and what this is are not the issue here; so many would have been protected had the Bishops acted as Shepherds should. Instead they have behaved like ravening wolves.

So now the Church here is in tatters and divided and torn. By its own actions.

And now also the demand is out for every diocese to be subjected to the same investigation as Dublin has seen; and this will be done now and layer after layer of abuse uncovered.

And still the complacency we hear; well, it was only a few... Not true and so misleading. The heart of Jesus weeps and aches here.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='29 November 2009 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1259552458' post='2011690']
Sex abuse is everywhere and in all occupations. Statistically [not much comfort to those involved] you are safer with priests than people from many other occupations such as school teachers or even your own family. Most sex offenders are married men. 2% of catholic priests were involved in some sex scandal.
BTW San diego has over 900 registered.
[/quote]