Now We're Hearing About Sexual Abuse Covered Up In Dublin Ireland

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' date='04 December 2009 - 10:23 AM' timestamp='1259936604' post='2014323']
The analogy is fine. The state does the same thing as everyone else. Schools move accused sexual predators around. The state lets them out and pretends that a monitoring program is a magical elixir. This is human nature. You want to present the church as worse when really it did the same thing collectively that everyone else does.
[/quote]LOL. A few points:
-The Church did not do the same thing as everyone else as they had NO monitoring, reporting, or disciplinary program. Couey had been turned in, convicted, and if he followed the rules, neighbors would have known. Did the Church ever have a reporting system to notify the congregation or even the pastor?

-So your excuse for the Church's actions is 'no apparent governing authority', or everyone else did it so it's okay?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='04 December 2009 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1259952831' post='2014435']
LOL. A few points:
-The Church did not do the same thing as everyone else as they had NO monitoring, reporting, or disciplinary program. Couey had been turned in, convicted, and if he followed the rules, neighbors would have known. Did the Church ever have a reporting system to notify the congregation or even the pastor?[/quote]
Okay. The church is the only group that has reacted that way. Everywhere else, sexual predators are neither hidden, moved or permitted access to their prey once caught.
[quote]
-So your excuse for the Church's actions is 'no apparent governing authority', or everyone else did it so it's okay?
[/quote]
I haven't given any excuses, I've merely tried to bring you to something resembling truth instead of reactionary drivel. I never said it was okay and never said anything implying it was. You want the Church to be worse than the world. I say that in this sense it is the [i]same [/i]as this world. If you can't see the parallel in moving an accused (or guilty) priest elsewhere and releasing a known dangerous rapist back into the world then I doubt any amount of discussion will help because you've decided CHURCH BAD!
The only way to deal with sexual predators is to forever remove them from their prey. I prefer execution to reduce the chances of escape, but life in prison (meaning they die before their bodies are removed from the cell and dumped in large pits and covered with lye) will probably have to suffice. Sadly, most people don't seem to share this view.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Winchester' date='04 December 2009 - 08:51 PM' timestamp='1259974286' post='2014563']
Okay. The church is the only group that has reacted that way. Everywhere else, sexual predators are neither hidden, moved or permitted access to their prey once caught.

I haven't given any excuses, I've merely tried to bring you to something resembling truth instead of reactionary drivel. I never said it was okay and never said anything implying it was. You want the Church to be worse than the world. I say that in this sense it is the [i]same [/i]as this world. If you can't see the parallel in moving an accused (or guilty) priest elsewhere and releasing a known dangerous rapist back into the world then I doubt any amount of discussion will help because you've decided CHURCH BAD!
The only way to deal with sexual predators is to forever remove them from their prey. I prefer execution to reduce the chances of escape, but life in prison (meaning they die before their bodies are removed from the cell and dumped in large pits and covered with lye) will probably have to suffice. Sadly, most people don't seem to share this view.
[/quote]All you've done is justify the Church's failures by denying them or equivocating them to being the same as everyone else. There is NO similarity between the actions State of Florida with John Couey and Bishops covering up known sexual molestors. Couey was identified to the public, punished, and tasked to be monitored. Bishops covering up for molesting priests does not identify them to the public, did not punish them, and did not task them to be monitored.

You are fundamentally intellectualy dishonest in your defense for the Church, and instead, more interested in dismissing criticism from anyone who does not profess slavish deference to the Catholic Church. Your stance that sexual predators should only be executed is either clumsy sarcasm presented as wit, or an example of unintended hypocrasy. To use that standard as showing that the Church and State both fail society equally in order to defend the failures of the Church and dismiss my criticism is an epic failure of logic.

[add]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='05 December 2009 - 01:06 PM' timestamp='1260032783' post='2014974']
All you've done is justify the Church's failures by denying them or equivocating them to being the same as everyone else. There is NO similarity between the actions State of Florida with John Couey and Bishops covering up known sexual molestors. Couey was identified to the public, punished, and tasked to be monitored. Bishops covering up for molesting priests does not identify them to the public, did not punish them, and did not task them to be monitored.

You are fundamentally intellectualy dishonest in your defense for the Church, and instead, more interested in dismissing criticism from anyone who does not profess slavish deference to the Catholic Church. Your stance that sexual predators should only be executed is either clumsy sarcasm presented as wit, or an example of unintended hypocrasy. To use that standard as showing that the Church and State both fail society equally in order to defend the failures of the Church and dismiss my criticism is an epic failure of logic.
[/quote]

say whats with your avatar, is it a self portrait or something else

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Terra Firma' date='30 November 2009 - 07:58 AM' timestamp='1259589531' post='2011898']
A great treatment on this topic is George Weigel's "The Courage to be Catholic." He persuasively argues that the crisis (in the U.S. at least) was primarily homosexual in nature, and that the pedophilia aspect of it was played up by the news media while the homosexual aspect was played down.

According to Weigel, the bigger picture, though, is that it was a crisis of fidelity. Such a problem transcends national boundaries.

The book is a great resource. I highly recommend it.
[/quote]
that book is amazing. i practically highlighted every paragraph.

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='30 November 2009 - 08:26 AM' timestamp='1259591164' post='2011910']
The bottom line here is, the Church, in the USA, handled sex abuse cases according to the protocol, recommended by the professionals at that time. Other institutions followed the same suit, but because they Catholic Church is who she is, the scandal made the headlines while others were kept silent.


Jim[/quote]
thanks Jim. well said.

[quote name='Anomaly' date='01 December 2009 - 05:54 AM' timestamp='1259668445' post='2012450']
Given the standard of moral behavior that should be established for people running and ministering in a "Church" that supposedly directly affects the eternal salvation of their followers, the "Church" has done little to properly address the perpetrators. Humans are prone to make mistakes and it's sad the % occurrence in priests compared to school workers is not significantly less. However, violators in the school system are dealt with more clearly, morally, and effectively. It is not a valid excuse to claim Bishops were just following the best advice at the time. The scandals in the US and Ireland are a direct result of the attitude of church leaders being above the same accountability of a common school teacher. Imagine if school superintendents pervasively transferred molesting teachers to another school...
[/quote]
actually the AP did a study on abuse in public schools - which was ignored by most MSM papers and news outlets. i will see if i can find it and post it here.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
i'm still looking but here's one article that discusses the study:
http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/7970

and another from the washington post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/21/AR2007102100144.html

[Theologian in Training]

There's one thing missing from this discussion, the fact that, at the time, we put a lot of stock in psychology and its ability to "rehabilitate" those who needed it. In fact, a lot of the scandals happened at the height of the time when "pop psychology" was the thing to do. The fact of the matter is that everyone is at fault, but the greater fault was in trusting in those who believed that a psychological sickness could be healed.

Also, you have to remember that the Church used to be a lot different at one time, and, while many are wont to call it "repression" since we now identify ourselves with our sexuality, there were certain disciplines built in to the priesthood that were effective at self-control.

Just my .02

[Anomaly]

[quote name='apparently' date='05 December 2009 - 05:51 PM' timestamp='1260049868' post='2015077']
say whats with your avatar, is it a self portrait or something else
[/quote]
Something else of course. I'm much older. It does make a significant statement about the idiocy we can self-inflict if we believe our own logic. The idiot pictured and his friend thought the markers would confuse surveiliance camers during an attempted burglary. However, they set the alarm off and were picked up an hour later since they were easily idenitified. That is his bookiing photo. Imagine explaing that in hte holding cell...

[add]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='06 December 2009 - 03:28 AM' timestamp='1260084531' post='2015286']
Something else of course. I'm much older. It does make a significant statement about the idiocy we can self-inflict if we believe our own logic. The idiot pictured and his friend thought the markers would confuse surveiliance camers during an attempted burglary. However, they set the alarm off and were picked up an hour later since they were easily idenitified. That is his bookiing photo. Imagine explaing that in hte holding cell...
[/quote]

By this avatar you portray a perceived weaknesses and faults and it gives scant credit to your skills and assets. This avatars persona of low or negative self-esteem, exemplifies a lack of value on your own opinions and ideas.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='apparently' date='06 December 2009 - 07:30 AM' timestamp='1260099006' post='2015309']
By this avatar you portray a perceived weaknesses and faults and it gives scant credit to your skills and assets. This avatars persona of low or negative self-esteem, exemplifies a lack of value on your own opinions and ideas.
[/quote]Or maybe it's a pointed statement to read beyond the superficial, first glance, sterotyped assumptions. For example, re-read this complete thread and read 'cappies' thread in Open Mic about mental reservation.

[add]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='06 December 2009 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1260110798' post='2015318']
Or maybe it's a pointed statement to read beyond the superficial, first glance, sterotyped assumptions. For example, re-read this complete thread and read 'cappies' thread in Open Mic about mental reservation.
[/quote]

or a washcloth, soap and water, maybe

[Winchester]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='05 December 2009 - 12:06 PM' timestamp='1260032783' post='2014974']
All you've done is justify the Church's failures by denying them or equivocating them to being the same as everyone else. There is NO similarity between the actions State of Florida with John Couey and Bishops covering up known sexual molestors. Couey was identified to the public, punished, and tasked to be monitored. Bishops covering up for molesting priests does not identify them to the public, did not punish them, and did not task them to be monitored.[/quote]
I haven't justified anything. I've attempted to put it in perspective.

The idiotic monitoring programs are a feel good measure. Shall we cite the recent "monitored" criminal who kept a woman captive for over a decade? Yeah, much better. The state is really protecting us and keeping us safe.
[quote]
You are fundamentally intellectualy dishonest in your defense for the Church, and instead, more interested in dismissing criticism from anyone who does not profess slavish deference to the Catholic Church. Your stance that sexual predators should only be executed is either clumsy sarcasm presented as wit, or an example of unintended hypocrasy. To use that standard as showing that the Church and State both fail society equally in order to defend the failures of the Church and dismiss my criticism is an epic failure of logic.
[/quote]
I haven't defended anything. There are probably remedial reading comprehension courses available in your area for a decent fee.

Hypocrisy is false piety. I have not claimed any piety at all. The death penalty is my solution to sexual predators, who are dangerous people. I do not care to play roulette with the innocent.

I have not defended the Church's actions in this case, merely shown that they act like everyone else. That's not defense. That's not justification.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Winchester

[alleros]

Please take a look at this and other articles on this site today



[url="http://www.clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/"]http://www.clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/[/url]

One article has been pulled off this morning. Telling how a Bishop attended parties run by paedophole priests.

Interesting also the response to the tax-dodging priest; it seems money matters more than children...

[Winchester]

Why are people shocked? Who didn't know clerical positions were filled by people? Who didn't know that power and authority attracts evil people and corrupts decent people?

[alleros]

Here in ireland, we are shocked because for generations the Church acted as moral guardians and to a large extent judge and jury.

See the two films online.

Sex in a Cold Climate... the documentary that was the basis for "The Magdalen Laundries" which when it came out was called untrue and lambasted by the Vatican - while they knew it was only a part of the terrible truth.

The utter lies and hypocrisy that has gone on here for decades and, indeed, spread its evil throughout the world.

We are appalled because if someone says they believe in Jesus and sets up as morally superior, we expected them to live as they teach.

Whereas they are seen now as "whited sepulchres" . Jesus says it far better does He not?

And of course, abuse of trust is always shocking.

we have people coming to us to ask, "Is it true?" Too shocked to take it in


[quote name='Winchester' date='07 December 2009 - 09:20 AM' timestamp='1260195638' post='2015714']
Why are people shocked? Who didn't know clerical positions were filled by people? Who didn't know that power and authority attracts evil people and corrupts decent people?
[/quote]

[Noel's angel]

People are acting as if they are shocked, but in the same breath, claim to have 'known these things all along'. Everyone who knew anything about these things, priests or laity, have to look at themselves. Plenty of families sent a son to the priesthood if he was a bit 'odd'. Parents sent their daughters off to the nuns if they got pregnant. This isn't just a clerical problem for Ireland-it runs right through to your average Irish Catholic family.