The State Of Israel

[Hussain]

I read Arabic, couldn't find even the word crucifixion on that webpage. Are you sure you got the right source? I even google translated it, just to be sure, couldn't find the word crucifixion, cross, or anything of that sort.

[Winchester]

Yes. I don't google and accept what comes up. I find something reliable (I obviously disagree with their theology) and I go with that. Claims about attacking civilians seem to turn out to be bunkum every stinking time.

Allegations of human shields. As opposed to bodies of soldiers alongside bodies of schoolchildren and bombers who blow themselves up in public. Depending on the nature of a raid, soldiers do permit occupants to lead them around. Certainly a ZIONIST SOLDIER would not be telling the truth. We are supposed to accept the other people at face value, so long as they are not ZIONIST OPPRESSORS. I have no doubt Israeli soldiers are not perfect. A soldier attacked amongst civilians and remaining in his position is not the same as launching an attack from a school occupied by children.

Oohh, articles that cite blogs, which are certainly reliable. They're not little editorials published without fact-checking. They are factual articles.

Yeah, kids put messages on bombs. If I was a daily target of terrorists, I'd want to sign some bombs, too.

Do you really think there are no articles to match yours? I thought the ZIONIST OPPRESSORS were powerful. Shouldn't they be able to control all sources of information? Perhaps the Protocols need updating, eh?

So there are Jews who oppose Israel. There are Catholics who oppose the pope. There are muslims who dig on swine.

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://newsmax.com/International/Hamas-bombs-Gaza-Israel/2009/01/09/id/327583"]Hamas Reinstates Crucifixions of Christians[/url]
Friday, 09 Jan 2009 05:05 PM
Article Font Size

By: Nicole Jansezian

While the world focused on Hamas militants launching rockets from Gaza at southern Israel, the terrorist organization also voted quietly to implement Islamic law in the Gaza Strip, including crucifixion of Christians, according to reports in the Arabic press.

The traditional Muslim criminal code, known as Sharia law, includes penalties such as amputation of limbs for stealing and the death penalty, including crucifixion, for actions Hamas deems detrimental to “Palestinian interests,” including collaborating with Israel.

The new law was reported on the Al-Arabiya Web site and in the London-based Saudi-owned newspaper Al-Hayat, which wrote that the implementation of Sharia law has “brought criticism and concern from human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip.”

But the media scarcely took notice when the decision was reported during the Christian holidays as fighting between Hamas and Israel escalated in late December.

“Hamas’ endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad,” Jerusalem Post columnist Caroline Glick wrote on Dec. 26. “Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn’t feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools.”

Christians are a minority in Gaza, numbering fewer than 2,000 residents among 1.6 million in the Strip. After Hamas came to power, the Islamic group began enforcing sharia law more strictly, though not officially. Christians were the first to feel the squeeze. Some Christian men felt compelled to grow beards and women donned head scarves to downplay their identities as non-Muslims.

Sharia law is implemented fully in some nations, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. When Palestinian voters elected Hamas in 2006, organization spokesman Hamed Bitawi declared: “The Quran is our constitution, Muhammad is our prophet, jihad is our path, and dying as martyrs for the sake of Allah is our biggest wish.”

Palestinian officials in Gaza denied the adoption of Islamic law. However, Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors the Arab press, says the group is lying.

“Contrary to today’s denials, official Hamas leaders have proudly announced in the Hamas-run media in the last two months that this Islamic penal code was being prepared,” the media watchdog said. “Indeed, senior Hamas leaders went so far as to say that when these laws are implemented, they will have force not only in Gaza but also in the West Bank.”

Media Watch also noted that Hamas newspaper Al-Rissala reported, “The Bureau of Islamic Law is preparing a penal code in order to implement Sharia-Islamic Law.”

Hamas has financial backing from Iran, which supplies the group with rockets and weapons used to attack Israel. Despite espousing separate branches of Islam — Hamas is Sunni; Iran is Shiite — the organization shares the expressed wish of Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to wipe out Israel. The Hamas charter states: “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.”

Israel withdrew unilaterally, both residents and soldiers, from the Gaza Strip in 2005, leaving the territory entirely under Palestinian jurisdiction. Then, in a coup in 2007, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, ousting its rival party Fatah and assassinating Fatah loyalists. Since then, rocket fire launched at Israel’s southern communities increased. In December, a six-month period of calm collapsed and led to Israel’s Operation Cast Lead, the bombings and attacks against Hamas militants in Gaza in retaliation for bombings of Israel.

[HisChildForever]

Yes and yes. Long live Israel.

[Maggyie]

The Israelis have done plenty of nasty things over the years, no question. At our parish around Chrismtas time we have Palestinian Catholics come to us to sell their wares, because ever since the wall was built their ability to provide for their families has evaporated along with the tourists. If we want a Catholic presence in the Holy Land, we have to help them and oppose projects like the wall etc. This besides all of the horrific human rights abuses. Many, many Jews are appalled by this and many of the Orthodox are anti-zionist.

But the response from the Palestinians is pretty much equivalent. These are the people who elected a terrorist organization as their government. What exactly can you say to people like that? There isn't much. That doesn't justify all the oppression, of course, but what do the Palestinians expect to happen when they blow up a nursery school every decade?

One party has to unilaterally choose to stop being wicked. To choose to do the right thing even though there are no guarantees that doing the right thing will get them a victory. Neither side has Jesus so I am not hopeful they will ever do it.

[Hussain]

[url="http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/12/12/93936.html"]Palestinian Christians call on Westerners to reject Zionism[/url]





Hundreds of Jewish settlers angry at reducedsettlement building burned pages of Islam's holy book in an attack on aWest Bank mosque as Palestinian Christians called for sanctions on"evil" Israel and rejected Christian Zionism, press reports saidSaturday.

Burned pages of the Quran lay scattered on the mosque's torched carpetas Israelis from the settlement of Tappuah spray painted in largeHebrew letters "Get ready to pay the price," a statement referring to arecent government decision to curb settlement building, only in theWest Bank and for only 10 months.

Securityforces used teargas to disperse hundreds of furious settlers in theWest Bank city of Yasuf, where hardline settlers call for a "price tag"policy under which they target Palestinians in retaliation for anyIsraeli government measure they see as threatening Jewish settlements.

Settler attacks on Palestinians is a common occurrence and last week ahouse and three vehicles were set on fire in another northern West Bankvillage. The owner of the house told police he saw three Jewishsettlers start the fires.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak sharply denounced the attack.

"This is an extreme act meant to harm the government's attempts toadvance the process for Israel's future," his office quoted him assaying.


[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_start_small.gif[/img] The aggression against the Palestinian people which is the Israelioccupation, is an evil that must be resisted. It is an evil and a sinthat must be resisted and removed[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_end_small.gif[/img]
Group statement "Evil" Israel

Meanwhilein the West Bank city of Bethlehem Christians from all denominationscalled for international sanctions on Israel for its "evil" occupationand urged Western Christians to reject Zionism.

"The aggression against the Palestinian people which is the Israelioccupation, is an evil that must be resisted. It is an evil and a sinthat must be resisted and removed," the Palestinains Ma'an news agencyquoted a released document as stating.

"Primary responsibility for this rests with the Palestinians themselvessuffering occupation. Christian love invites us to resist it," thedocument added.

The group, who call themselves the Palestine Kairos Initiative, modeledafter black South Africa's 1985 Kairos Document, called on theinternational community to begin "a system of economic sanctions andboycott to be applied against Israel," and to "engage in divestment andin an economic and commercial boycott of everything produced by theoccupation."

"These advocacy campaigns must be carried out with courage, openlysincerely proclaiming that their object is not revenge but rather toput an end to the existing evil, liberating both the perpetrators andthe victims of injustice."


[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_start_small.gif[/img] Those who use the Bible to threaten our existence as Christian andMuslim Palestinians, we renew our faith in God because we know that theword of God can not be the source of our destruction[img]http://www.alarabiya.net/img/quote_end_small.gif[/img]
Group statement Faith in God

Thegroup also specifically addressed Chrisitians living in the west whosupport Zionism and slammed them for "trying to attach a biblical andtheological legitimacy to the infringement of our rights." Theirinterpretation of scripture has "become a menace to our very existence.... The 'good news' in the Gospel itself has become 'a harbinger ofdeath' for us."

The group said misinterpretations of the holy scriptures was threatening the Palestinian people's existence.

"Those who use the Bible to threaten our existence as Christian andMuslim Palestinians, we renew our faith in God because we know that theword of God can not be the source of our destruction."

"We call on these theologians to deepen their reflection on the Word ofGod and to rectify their interpretations so that they might see in theWord of God a source of life for all peoples."

According to Ma'an the Palestine Kairos Initiative was first proposedin Jordan leading religious figures from all denominations, includingLutherians, Greek Orthodox and Baptists.

"After sitting and theologically reflecting on the situation, theinjustice of the situation, we came up with this document," Kairosspokesman Ranjan Solomon told Ma'an. "Palestinians perceive this as amoment of truth."

[Hussain]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='13 December 2009 - 12:51 AM' timestamp='1260679883' post='2019529']
[url="http://newsmax.com/International/Hamas-bombs-Gaza-Israel/2009/01/09/id/327583"]Hamas Reinstates Crucifixions of Christians[/url]
Friday, 09 Jan 2009 05:05 PM
Article Font Size

By: Nicole Jansezian

While the world focused on Hamas militants launching rockets from Gaza at southern Israel, the terrorist organization also voted quietly to implement Islamic law in the Gaza Strip, including crucifixion of Christians, according to reports in the Arabic press.

The traditional Muslim criminal code, known as Sharia law, includes penalties such as amputation of limbs for stealing and the death penalty, including crucifixion, for actions Hamas deems detrimental to "Palestinian interests," including collaborating with Israel.

The new law was reported on the Al-Arabiya Web site and in the London-based Saudi-owned newspaper Al-Hayat, which wrote that the implementation of Sharia law has "brought criticism and concern from human rights organizations in the Gaza Strip."

But the media scarcely took notice when the decision was reported during the Christian holidays as fighting between Hamas and Israel escalated in late December.

"Hamas' endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad," Jerusalem Post columnist Caroline Glick wrote on Dec. 26. "Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools."

Christians are a minority in Gaza, numbering fewer than 2,000 residents among 1.6 million in the Strip. After Hamas came to power, the Islamic group began enforcing sharia law more strictly, though not officially. Christians were the first to feel the squeeze. Some Christian men felt compelled to grow beards and women donned head scarves to downplay their identities as non-Muslims.

Sharia law is implemented fully in some nations, including Iran and Saudi Arabia. When Palestinian voters elected Hamas in 2006, organization spokesman Hamed Bitawi declared: "The Quran is our constitution, Muhammad is our prophet, jihad is our path, and dying as martyrs for the sake of Allah is our biggest wish."

Palestinian officials in Gaza denied the adoption of Islamic law. However, Palestinian Media Watch, an organization that monitors the Arab press, says the group is lying.

"Contrary to today's denials, official Hamas leaders have proudly announced in the Hamas-run media in the last two months that this Islamic penal code was being prepared," the media watchdog said. "Indeed, senior Hamas leaders went so far as to say that when these laws are implemented, they will have force not only in Gaza but also in the West Bank."

Media Watch also noted that Hamas newspaper Al-Rissala reported, "The Bureau of Islamic Law is preparing a penal code in order to implement Sharia-Islamic Law."

Hamas has financial backing from Iran, which supplies the group with rockets and weapons used to attack Israel. Despite espousing separate branches of Islam — Hamas is Sunni; Iran is Shiite — the organization shares the expressed wish of Iran President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to wipe out Israel. The Hamas charter states: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Israel withdrew unilaterally, both residents and soldiers, from the Gaza Strip in 2005, leaving the territory entirely under Palestinian jurisdiction. Then, in a coup in 2007, Hamas took over the Gaza Strip, ousting its rival party Fatah and assassinating Fatah loyalists. Since then, rocket fire launched at Israel's southern communities increased. In December, a six-month period of calm collapsed and led to Israel's Operation Cast Lead, the bombings and attacks against Hamas militants in Gaza in retaliation for bombings of Israel.
[/quote]

I found it weird that the main article this was based on did not contain the story of crucifixion. Do you have any other sources on this? I'm not trying to deny this, just looking for the bigger picture.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='13 December 2009 - 03:10 AM' timestamp='1260663028' post='2019412']
One can be against the State of Israel and also against the State of Palestine. The Vatican is historically anti-zionist (NOT anti-semitic). The State of Israel has very little to do with the religion of Judaeism anyway, and most orthodox Jews are against the State because it is completely secular.
[/quote]

On this subject I am an authority [never mind why]. The State of Israel is a modern, democratic entity which provides a refuge to all Jews [according to Jewish Law, a Jew is someone born to a Jewish mother, which is not a statement of religious belief at all] since it is the Jewish ancestral homeland for thousands of years before there was either "Palestine" or "Palestinians". The Law of Return also provides for certain categories of persons who are not Jewish under Jewish Law to obtain citizenship [Hitler's definition of Jewishness included a great many who were not Jewish under Jewish law]

I don't want to comment on whether the Vatican is "anti-Zionist" or "anti-semitic". At various times it has been both, at others, neither. The current Pope seems well-disposed toward Israel, although there are still glitches from time to time.

Orthodox Jews are most emphatically not against the State of Israel. Indeed, the majority of immigrants to Israel today from Western countries [UK, US, and France, mainly] are Orthodox. There is a very small [several hundreds only] extremist ultra-Orthodox group which opposes the existence of a secular state, but the vast majority of the ultra-Orthodox also support the State.

Israel is basically secular, but there are some exceptions. There is, for example, no civil marriage in Israel. The Ministry of Religion oversees the kosher standards of restaurants, and the national holidays, and day of rest, are based on Jewish holidays and the Sabbath, with Moslems allowed to take their own holidays off instead.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Winchester' date='12 December 2009 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1260662201' post='2019396']
Yeah. Torture. Whatev.
[/quote]

Yeah. Torture.

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/feb/11/israel"]Israeli Government Report Admits Systematic Torture of Palestinians. [/url]

[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/07/israel"]Israeli Human Rights Group: Palestinians 'Routinely Tortured' in Israeli Jails[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited December 13, 2009 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Hussain' date='13 December 2009 - 12:55 AM' timestamp='1260683707' post='2019562']
I found it weird that the main article this was based on did not contain the story of crucifixion. Do you have any other sources on this? I'm not trying to deny this, just looking for the bigger picture.
[/quote]

The paper tells of the law passed by Hamas but the writer did not mention crucifixion. But other newspapers do when speaking of the same law.


[url="http://europenews.dk/en/node/17769"]Hamas legalizes crucifixion[/url]

Caroline Glick December 26 2008

Both Iran and its Hamas proxy in Gaza have been busy this Christmas week showing Christendom just what they think of it. But no one seems to have noticed.

On Tuesday, Hamas legislators marked the Christmas season by passing a Shari'a criminal code for the Palestinian Authority. Among other things, it legalizes crucifixion.

Hamas's endorsement of nailing enemies of Islam to crosses came at the same time it renewed its jihad. Here, too, Hamas wanted to make sure that Christians didn't feel neglected as its fighters launched missiles at Jewish day care centers and schools. So on Wednesday, Hamas lobbed a mortar shell at the Erez crossing point into Israel just as a group of Gazan Christians were standing on line waiting to travel to Bethlehem for Christmas.

While Hamas joyously renewed its jihad against Jews and Christians, its overlords in Iran also basked in jihadist triumphalism. The source of Teheran's sense of ascendancy this week was Britain's Channel 4 network's decision to request that Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad give a special Christmas Day address to the British people.

Ahmadinejad's speech was supposed to be a response to Queen Elizabeth II's traditional Christmas Day address to her subjects. That is, Channel 4 presented his message as a reasonable counterpoint to the Christmas greetings of the head of the Church of England.

Channel 4 justified its move by proclaiming that it was providing a public service. As a spokesman told The Jerusalem Post, "We're offering [Ahmadinejad] the chance to speak for himself, which people in the West don't often get the chance to see."

While that sounds reasonable, the fact is that Westerners see Ahmadinejad speaking for himself all the time. They saw him at the UN two years in a row as he called for the countries of the world to submit to Islam; claimed that Iran's nuclear weapons program is divinely inspired; and castigated Jews as subhuman menaces to humanity.

They saw him gather leading anti-Semites from all over the world at his Holocaust denial conference.

They heard him speak in his own words when he called for Israel to be "wiped off the map."

And of course, over the years Ahmadinejad has often communicated directly to the British people. For instance, in 2007 he received unlimited airtime on UK television as he paraded kidnapped British sailors and marines in front of television cameras; forced them to make videotaped "confessions" of their "crime" of entering Iranian territorial waters; and compelled them to grovel at his knee and thank him for "forgiving" them.

The British people listened to Ahmadinejad as he condemned Britain as a warmongering nation after its leaders had surrendered Basra to Iranian proxies. They heard him - speaking in his own voice - when he announced that in a gesture of Islamic mercy, he was freeing their humiliated sailors and marines in honor of Muhammad's birthday and Easter, and then called on all Britons to convert to Islam.

Yet as far as Channel 4 is concerned, Ahmadinejad is still an unknown quantity for most Britons. So they asked him to address the nation on Christmas. And not surprisingly, in his address, he attacked their way of life and co-opted their Jewish savior, Jesus, saying, "If Christ was on earth today, undoubtedly he would stand with the people in opposition to bullying, ill-tempered and expansionist powers."

He then reiterated his call for non-Muslims to convert to Islam saying, "The solution to today's problems can be found in a return to the call of the divine prophets."

THE FACT of the matter is that Channel 4 is right. There is a great deal of ignorance in the West about what the likes of Ahmadinejad and his colleagues in Iran, Syria, Hizbullah and Hamas stand for. But this isn't their fault. They tell us every day that they seek the destruction of the Jews and the domination of the West in the name of Islam. And every day they take actions that they believe advance their goals.

The reason that the West remains ignorant of the views and goals of the likes of Hamas and Iran is not that the latter have hidden their views and goals. It is because the leading political leaders and foreign policy practitioners in the West refuse to listen to them and deny the significance of their actions. (...)

[Jesus_lol]

I'm not really too well versed on the subject, but i don't see the point of the USA supporting Israel like it does. the fighting there is already so one-sided in israel's favour, its like the USA came upon a big kid beating up a smaller kid, and gave the big kid a stick. with a nail in it.

[Pomak]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='13 December 2009 - 03:33 PM' timestamp='1260678808' post='2019524']
No that is not the site I sourced from, nor is the site I found the sources.

But your respose begs the question, is the Al Arabiya, a pro-islamic newspaper, The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian and National Review are all in a conspiracy of some kind with aish.com?
[/quote]
Pro-Islamic newspaper? err actually its a tv channel last time I checked (with a website) and it is heavily funded by the US govt to offset the coverage of Aljazeera. And most people view it as a pro-govt(both US and Arab) mouthpiece. In other words they hate hamas, not exactly "fair and balanced" if you know what I mean.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Hussain' date='13 December 2009 - 08:51 AM' timestamp='1260683516' post='2019558']
[url="http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/12/12/93936.html"]Palestinian Christians call on Westerners to reject Zionism[/url]

Hundreds of Jewish settlers angry at reducedsettlement building burned pages of Islam's holy book in an attack on aWest Bank mosque as Palestinian Christians called for sanctions on"evil" Israel and rejected Christian Zionism, press reports saidSaturday.

[/quote]

I notice you do not mention the blanket condemnation of the mosque attack by every high figure in the Israeli government, nor mention those newspaper articles which relate the very high profile investigation to find the perpetrators of the atrocity by the Israeli police. That is bias.

I should like those Christians on this list to sit down with a map of Israel, including the West Bank, and a box of pins and the two Books of Samuel, and put a pin on the map everywhere Jesus' great-great grandfather David was during his life and kingship. 1500 years before the first "Palestinian" ever existed, the Kingdom of David contained Judea and Samaria [which the "Palestinians" are now claiming], and I think it very likely that Jesus would be a "settler" [actually, returning resident] if he lived today. He most certainly would be appalled at the Moslem presence on the site of the Temple.

[Pomak]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='13 December 2009 - 09:03 PM' timestamp='1260698638' post='2019609']
I notice you do not mention the blanket condemnation of the mosque attack by every high figure in the Israeli government, nor mention those newspaper articles which relate the very high profile investigation to find the perpetrators of the atrocity by the Israeli police. That is bias.

I should like those Christians on this list to sit down with a map of Israel, including the West Bank, and a box of pins and the two Books of Samuel, and put a pin on the map everywhere Jesus' great-great grandfather David was during his life and kingship. 1500 years before the first "Palestinian" ever existed, the Kingdom of David contained Judea and Samaria [which the "Palestinians" are now claiming], and I think it very likely that Jesus would be a "settler" [actually, returning resident] if he lived today. He most certainly would be appalled at the Moslem presence on the site of the Temple.
[/quote]

My people once lived on the north of the black sea and if we go back further we can trace our lands to parts of central asia(near Afghanistan). Would we be justified in launching a military campaign against the people who live there now? And then using the locals as slave labour or pushing them into the uninhabitable parts of their land?(Just like what happened to the native americans) Because that is how the "Jewish state" was founded and how it continues to work.

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Pomak' date='13 December 2009 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1260709522' post='2019627']
My people once lived on the north of the black sea and if we go back further we can trace our lands to parts of central asia(near Afghanistan). Would we be justified in launching a military campaign against the people who live there now? And then using the locals as slave labour or pushing them into the uninhabitable parts of their land?(Just like what happened to the native americans) Because that is how the "Jewish state" was founded and how it continues to work.
[/quote]


Everything in that statement, apart from noting the origins of your people [which indeed was part of the problem of the Balkans, that various ethnic groups felt they had prior rights and that others [Moslems, as a matter of fact] were interlopers who settled there during the Ottoman period, is false, and can be shown to be so, if you would take the time to do some proper research. I can recommend fully documented reading if you wish. I would appreciate it if you would stop regurgitating lies and propaganda. Remember that Jesus was a Jew, and if he were in Israel today, the "Palestinians" would be trying to kill him.

Further, it might interest you to know that 20% of the population of Israel is Arab, fully enfranchised citizens* under the law. Most are Moslems. Arabic is the second official language of Israel, and there is a public school system that teaches in Arabic, and where the students learn Koran and Islam [Hebrew and English are second languages] Every month there are several hundred applications for Israeli citizenship which are made by "Palestinians" who find PA/Hamas intolerable. That shows just how terribly Israelis treat "Palestinians".

In 1948 two things happened which go largely unnoticed: over 800,000 Jews in Moslem countries had to flee for their lives with only the clothes on their backs to Israel, while the Arab countries which surround Israel, after declaring war on Israel, warned the Arab inhabitants that they would be punished as collaborators "when" the Arab armies were victorious and pushed the Jews into the sea, and [i]because of that[/i], the Arabs fled their homes. So far from being evicted, Israeli army officers actually tried to urge residents of some towns to remain, but the villagers didn't want to take a chance. This is documented**. No Arab country was willing to resettle the refugees who had been locked into the Gaza Strip by Egypt. Israel not only took in all the Jews who survived the Holocaust, they took in all those from Moslem countries, and still today is a place of refuge for Jews who are persecuted. Egypt will not allow "Palestinians" to leave the Gaza Strip, and "Palestinians" in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are kept in camps because they have more than once attempted to overthrow the host country governments. King Hussain of Jordan survived over 40 assassination attempts

The assertion that Israel uses "slave labor" is worse than absurd. "Palestinians" fight for the chance to work for Israeli employers, because they have conditions and pay whichare so much better than with Arab employers [when there is work at all]. Israel is in a no-win situation: the charge is made that they exploit Arab labor, yet if the border crossings are closed, Israel is accused of starving the Arabs by not letting them work. You can't have it both ways. In addition, the European Union gives the "Palestinians" 40 million Euros a month, which does not go toward making Gaza livable, it goes for buying guns. Hamas cares nothing for its constituents, and indeed, is beginning to look a lot like the Taliban. Gazans are faking illness in order to cross Israel [Gazans are treated in Israeli hospitals for serious illnesses, another evidence of Israeli "brutality", I suppose] and get to the PA controlled West Bank, which is less extreme. This also has been documented.

I should further note that only today an Israeli woman was stabbed by a "Palestinian", and a Kassam rocket was launched on the town of Shderot from the Gaza Strip.

*Not only do Israeli Arabs, both men and women, have the vote, they have several Members in the Israeli Parliament [from their own parties, although most Israeli Arabs choose to vote Labor]. Israeli Arab children, of both sexes, have compulsory education until age 16. Girls cannot be married before 17 which is the age of consent. Although the religious authorities control divorce, instead of simply saying "I divorce you" three times, a man must wait at least a month between repetitions of the words, and they must be pronounced in an authorized Islamic court. Illiteracy, especially among girls, is widespread in certain Arab countries, women do not have the vote in some countries, nor can they drive, and if divorced -- which can be done in the space of less than five minutes-- they not only have no recourse, they lose custody over their children.

**Joan Peters, in her book "From Time Immemorial" fully documents, using the UN's own sources, that in 1948 the "Palestinian refugees" gave as their place of permanent residence over 20 countries apart from the area of the British Mandate, and that some of them admitted to residing in "Palestine" for only two years.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Antigonos

[Maggyie]

The debates about "who was here first" are rather silly and meaningless. Politics deals with reality and the reality is there are now two groups living in the same area. There is never going to be a solution to the problem that involes the Palestinians getting back all their land or the Palestinians accepting the current status quo, which has them under Israel's jackboot. Not going to happen. Ever. Unfortunately everyone is very emotionally invested in the narrative that "oooooo the Palestinians are eeeevil, and the Israelis are noble and just" or "ooooo, the Israelis are eeeeevil, and the Palestinians suffer unjustly."

It just occurred to me that it is rather ironic the way some Americans so vigorously support Israel when they have such a nasty record of spying on us! Inside the Irsraeli intelligence services you can bet their motto is NOT "long live America!"

Edited December 13, 2009 by Maggie

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Maggie' date='13 December 2009 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1260714488' post='2019635']
The debates about "who was here first" are rather silly and meaningless. Politics deals with reality and the reality is there are now two groups living in the same area. There is never going to be a solution to the problem that involes the Palestinians getting back all their land or the Palestinians accepting the current status quo, which has them under Israel's jackboot. Not going to happen. Ever. Unfortunately everyone is very emotionally invested in the narrative that "oooooo the Palestinians are eeeevil, and the Israelis are noble and just" or "ooooo, the Israelis are eeeeevil, and the Palestinians suffer unjustly."

It just occurred to me that it is rather ironic the way some Americans so vigorously support Israel when they have such a nasty record of spying on us! Inside the Irsraeli intelligence services you can bet their motto is NOT "long live America!"
[/quote]
Well of course they are spying on us, don't you think we spying on them??

[add]

[quote name='Maggie' date='13 December 2009 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1260714488' post='2019635']
The debates about "who was here first" are rather silly and meaningless. Politics deals with reality and the reality is there are now two groups living in the same area. There is never going to be a solution to the problem that involes the Palestinians getting back all their land or the Palestinians accepting the current status quo, which has them under Israel's jackboot. Not going to happen. Ever. Unfortunately everyone is very emotionally invested in the narrative that "oooooo the Palestinians are eeeevil, and the Israelis are noble and just" or "ooooo, the Israelis are eeeeevil, and the Palestinians suffer unjustly."

It just occurred to me that it is rather ironic the way some Americans so vigorously support Israel when they have such a nasty record of spying on us! Inside the Irsraeli intelligence services you can bet their motto is NOT "long live America!"
[/quote]

i bet you a quarter, that it is, that is that you's wrong

Edited December 13, 2009 by apparently

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Pomak' date='13 December 2009 - 02:38 AM' timestamp='1260689931' post='2019591']
Pro-Islamic newspaper? err actually its a tv channel last time I checked (with a website) and it is heavily funded by the US govt to offset the coverage of Aljazeera. And most people view it as a pro-govt(both US and Arab) mouthpiece. In other words they hate hamas, not exactly "fair and balanced" if you know what I mean.
[/quote]

Yes Pro-Islamic. Judging from the article Hussain posted and others like it from that site, it does seem very Pro-Islamic. I understand from past debates with Islamic Apologists that any news article that is critical of Islamic is propaganda, like you have just argued.

The fact remains Hamas did in fact enact a law that legalizes Crucifixion, and Christians are often persecuted in Hamas controlled territory.

The 'problem' with the State of Israel is that it is 'run by Jews.' The hate the middle east has for Jews is astounding, the Jew is portrayed as evil, and vile in very popular propaganda. Even before the creation of Israel Jews were in danger in Muslim nations, many Arab nations sided with the Axes Powers, and Hitler was very popular and his ideology was very popular in Islamic nations.

[JimR-OCDS]

The establishment of the Jewish State of Israel was a disaster from the beginning.

First off, the majority of the people living in the land known as Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims,
wanted a secular state, with a democratically elected representative form of government.

The Zionist on the other hand, made up mostly of Jews from Europe and the USA, demanded a Jewish state, and even drew up lines of petition, splitting villages and other owned property inhabited by Arabs.

What seems to be kept secret to Americans, is the amount of terrorist acts the Zionist committed, prior to 1948.

Between blowing up the King David Hotel, which killed over 80 British soldiers and other atrocities,
they spread fear and distrust among the residents inside Palestine, which would lead to all out violence as they declared the petition zone a State of Israel.

One atrocity which help feed the distrust of the Zionists, happened between 9 and 11 April 1948, where over 100 Arab townspeople were massacred by Jewish paramilitaries in Deir Yassin near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine.

In 1948 when the Arab nations attacked the newly declared state of Israel, Palestinian civilians fled their homes, some in order to get out of the way of the on coming Israeli Army and others were driven out of their homes at gun point by Israeli soldiers. These people thought that once the shooting stopped, they would be able to return to their homes. However, such was not the case. Hundreds of thousands were driven out by Israeli forces, some being placed on buses, and sent out into the desert areas of Gaza and the West Bank, which to this day, serve as refugee camps. Jews from Europe took over the homes of those Palestinians, being told by the Israeli government, that the houses were merely abandoned.

Such was not the case and since then, the people driven out of their homes, have been seeking to return to them, but it has not and will never happen.

Since then, we now have generations of dislocated and dispositioned people, who only seek justice.

Of course the radical terrorist group, The Muslim Brotherhood, jumped right into the cause and helped Hamas become a thorn in the side of those who seek peace, especially those who advocate a separate Palestinians state. Their goal, total destruction of the state of Israel, which will never happen.

So, here we the rest of the world, have been stuck with this perpetual violence ever since 1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was declared.

How different would it have been, had the people living in Palestine, were listened to and a secular democratic nation had been established instead?

Well never know.


Jim

Edited December 14, 2009 by JimR-OCDS