The State Of Israel

[Antigonos]

[quote name='JimR-OCDS' date='14 December 2009 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1260817194' post='2020440']
The establishment of the Jewish State of Israel was a disaster from the beginning.

First off, the majority of the people living in the land known as Palestine, Jews, Christians and Muslims,
wanted a secular state, with a democratically elected representative form of government.

The Zionist on the other hand, made up mostly of Jews from Europe and the USA, demanded a Jewish state, and even drew up lines of petition, splitting villages and other owned property inhabited by Arabs.

What seems to be kept secret to Americans, is the amount of terrorist acts the Zionist committed, prior to 1948.

Between blowing up the King David Hotel, which killed over 80 British soldiers and other atrocities,
they spread fear and distrust among the residents inside Palestine, which would lead to all out violence as they declared the petition zone a State of Israel.

One atrocity which help feed the distrust of the Zionists, happened between 9 and 11 April 1948, where over 100 Arab townspeople were massacred by Jewish paramilitaries in Deir Yassin near Jerusalem in the British Mandate of Palestine.

In 1948 when the Arab nations attacked the newly declared state of Israel, Palestinian civilians fled their homes, some in order to get out of the way of the on coming Israeli Army and others were driven out of their homes at gun point by Israeli soldiers. These people thought that once the shooting stopped, they would be able to return to their homes. However, such was not the case. Hundreds of thousands were driven out by Israeli forces, some being placed on buses, and sent out into the desert areas of Gaza and the West Bank, which to this day, serve as refugee camps. Jews from Europe took over the homes of those Palestinians, being told by the Israeli government, that the houses were merely abandoned.

Such was not the case and since then, the people driven out of their homes, have been seeking to return to them, but it has not and will never happen.

Since then, we now have generations of dislocated and dispositioned people, who only seek justice.

Of course the radical terrorist group, The Muslim Brotherhood, jumped right into the cause and helped Hamas become a thorn in the side of those who seek peace, especially those who advocate a separate Palestinians state. Their goal, total destruction of the state of Israel, which will never happen.

So, here we the rest of the world, have been stuck with this perpetual violence ever since 1948, when the Jewish State of Israel was declared.

How different would it have been, had the people living in Palestine, were listened to and a secular democratic nation had been established instead?

Well never know.


Jim
[/quote]

I regret, Jim, that about 80% of your post is factually wrong. But I can see that you do not understand that Judaism is the religion of the Jewish PEOPLE. Put 10 Christians in a room and ask them why they define themselves as Christians, and they will begin their answers with "I believe...". Ask 10 Jews the same question and they will say "I was born Jewish". Abba Eban came closest when he said that Judaism is a civilization.

When I have the time, I will refute your assertions paragraph by paragraph. However, I think one has to make a distinction between politics and religion here. Israel IS a secular, political entity. Slightly more than 20% of its citizens are not Jewish. Is the US a secular or a Christian country because most of its citizens adhere to some form of the Christian religion? The State religion of the UK is the Anglican Church -- does anyone call the UK anything but secular in its politics, however?

Whenever enemies of Israel want to "score a point" they mention Deir Yassin. It was an unforgiveable incident. At the time 650,000 Israelis were facing all the millions of all the Arab states surrounding them who had vowed to exterminate the Jewish State, indeed had begun attacking even before the UN partition vote was an hour old.

Go on, let's hear about all the other incidents where Jews committed atrocities against the Arabs. You can't count them on the fingers of one hand. Whereas the Israelis are today STILL fighting their war of independence 60 years after the State of Israel was founded. Only yesterday a woman was stabbed and a rocket launched against an Israeli city. Let's talk about what the "Palestinian" suicide bombers did to Israeli women and children, not Israeli soldiers, during the two intifadas.

I notice you do not even mention what happened to those Jews who did not flee Moslem countries between 1948-1951. Over 800,000 were forced to leave, literally overnight in many cases, and their property in their native countries was grabbed by the Moslems.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='15 December 2009 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1260857654' post='2020846']


Go on, let's hear about all the other incidents where Jews committed atrocities against the Arabs. You can't count them on the fingers of one hand. Whereas the Israelis are today STILL fighting their war of independence 60 years after the State of Israel was founded. Only yesterday a woman was stabbed and a rocket launched against an Israeli city. Let's talk about what the "Palestinian" suicide bombers did to Israeli women and children, not Israeli soldiers, during the two intifadas.
[/quote]


Well. Do you count Shaba and Shatila as one incident or two? Are the illegal settlements that rob Palestinians of their land one large offense against the Palestinians or an aggregate of countless individual offenses? How about the recent findings of the UN regarding Israel's illegal and negligent actions during the 2009 incursion into Gaza? What about the forced displacement of Palestinian civilians during the 1948 war? The countless offenses committed regularly in the Occupied Territories?

[JimR-OCDS]

Antigonos'

[quote]
I regret, Jim, that about 80% of your post is factually wrong.
[/quote]

But you can't show it is. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[quote]
Israel IS a secular, political entity.
[/quote]

Wrong. Israel is a Jewish State. In fact, Eastern European Jews who converted to Christianity and
immigrated to Israel, were denied citizenship because they stated on their application, that their
religion was anything but Jewish. Only Jews immigrating to Israel, can become citizens there.

[/quote]
Slightly more than 20% of its citizens are not Jewish.
[/quote]

Those citizens were those Arabs who were there before the state of Israel was established. Under the UN resolution, they were given citizenship, however, they can not run for higher public office in the Israeli Government. Only Jewish citizens can hold these positions.

Also, the percentage of non-Jewish people living in what is now Israel, has dropped because of forced
exile, or voluntary exile. Christians in Israel counted for 37% of the population back in 1948. Today its about 2%. They didn't leave just because of Hamas, they left because of the 2nd class status they received from the Israeli government.

[/quote]
Is the US a secular or a Christian country because most of its citizens adhere to some form of the Christian religion?
[/quote]

The US was never established as a Christian nation. Israel was established as a Jewish nation. Its what Zionism is all about.


[quote]
Whenever enemies of Israel want to "score a point" they mention Deir Yassin. It was an unforgiveable incident. At the time 650,000 Israelis were facing all the millions of all the Arab states surrounding them who had vowed to exterminate the Jewish State, indeed had begun attacking even before the UN partition vote was an hour old.
[/quote]

Zionist terrorist acts such as Deir Yassin, began before the Arab nations attacked in 1948, when the Zionist declared their independence and set up the state of Israel. After acts like Deir Yassin, the population of non-Jews living in Palestine, feared the on coming Jewish forces, and fled for their lives, hoping that the UN would bring about a resolution that would allow them to return to their homes. It never happened, and those people along with subsquent generations, have been living in exhile in Gaza and the West Bank. However, ever there, the Jewish settelers, with the aid of the Israeli Army, have driven many into Lebanon or into the exhile cities in Gaza.

[quote]
Go on, let's hear about all the other incidents where Jews committed atrocities against the Arabs.
[/quote]

[color="#ff0000"]August 20, 1937 - June 29, 1939.[/color] During this period, the Zionists carried out a series of attacks against Arab buses, resulting in the death of 24 persons and wounding 25 others.

[color="red"]November 25, 1940.[/color] S.S.Patria was blown up by Jewish terrorists in Haifa harbour, killing 268 illegal Jewish immigrants (see below).

[color="red"]November 6, 1944.[/color] Zionist terrorists of the Stern Gang assassinated the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, Lord Moyne, in Cairo.

[color="red"]July 22, 1946.[/color] Zionist terrorists blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, which housed the central offices of the civilian administration of the government of Palestine, killing or injuring more than 200 persons. The Irgun officially claimed responsibility for the incident, but subsequent evidence indicated that both the Haganah and the Jewish Agency were involved.

[color="red"]October 1, 1946.[/color] The British Embassy in Rome was badly damaged by bomb explosions, for which Irgun claimed responsibility.

[color="red"]June 1947.[/color] Letters sent to British Cabinet Ministers were found to contain bombs.

[color="red"]September 3, 1947.[/color] A postal bomb addressed to the British War Office exploded in the post office sorting room in London, injuring 2 persons. It was attributed to Irgun or Stern Gangs. (The Sunday Times, Sept. 24, 1972, p.8)

[color="red"]December 11, 1947.[/color] Six Arabs were killed and 30 wounded when bombs were thrown from Jewish trucks at Arab buses in Haifa; 12 Arabs were killed and others injured in an attack by armed Zionists on an Arab coastal village near Haifa.

[color="red"]December 13,1947.[/color] Zionist terrorists, believed to be members of Irgun Zvai Leumi, killed 18 Arabs and wounded nearly 60 in Jerusalem, Jaffa and Lydda areas. In Jerusalem, bombs were thrown in an Arab market-place near the Damascus Gate; in Jaffa, bombs were thrown into an Arab cafe; in the Arab village of Al Abbasya, near Lydda, 12 Arabs were killed in an attack with mortars and automatic weapons.

[color="red"]December 19, 1947.[/color] Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blowing up two houses, in the ruins of which were found the bodies of 10 Arabs, including 5 children. Haganah admitted responsibility for the attack.

[color="red"]December 29, 1947.[/color] Two British constables and 11 Arabs were killed and 32 Arabs injured, at the Damascus Gate in Jerusalem when Irgun members threw a bomb from a taxi.

[color="red"]December 30,1947.[/color] A mixed force of the Zionist Palmach and the "Carmel Brigade" attacked the village of Balad al Sheikh, killing more than 60 Arabs.

[color="red"]1947 -- 1948.[/color] Over 700,000 Palestinian Arabs were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel's borders. They have been denied the right to return to their homes. They have been refused compensation for their homes, orchards, farms and other property stolen from them by the Israeli government. After their expulsion, the "Israeli Forces" totally obliterated (usually by bulldozing) 385 Arab villages and towns, out of a total of 475. Commonly, Israeli villages were built on the remaining rubble.

[color="red"]January 1, 1948.[/color] Haganah terrorists attacked a village on the slopes of Mount Carmel; 17 Arabs were killed and 33 wounded.

[color="red"]January 4, 1948.[/color] Haganah terrorists wearing British Army uniforms penetrated into the center of Jaffa and blew up the Serai (the old Turkish Government House) which was used as a headquarters of the Arab National Committee, killing more than 40 persons and wounding 98 others.

[color="red"]January 5, 1948.[/color] The Arab-owned Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem was blown up, killing 20 persons, among them Viscount de Tapia, the Spanish Consul. Haganah admitted responsibility for this crime.

[color="red"]January 7, 1948.[/color] Seventeen Arabs were killed by a bomb at the Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem, 3 of them while trying to escape. Further casualties, including the murder of a British officer near Hebron, were reported from different parts of the country.

[color="red"]January 16, 1948.[/color] Zionists blew up three Arab buildings. In the first, 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years, died.

[color="red"]December 13, 1947 -- February 10, 1948.[/color] Seven incidents of bomb-tossing at innocent Arab civilians in cafes and markets, killing 138 and wounding 271 others, During this period, there were 9 attacks on Arab buses. Zionists mined passenger trains on at least 4 occasions, killing 93 persons and wounding 161 others.

[color="red"]February 15, 1948.[/color] Haganah terrorists attacked an Arab village near Safad, blew up several houses, killing 11 Arabs, including 4 children..

[color="red"]March 3, 1948.[/color] Heavy damage was done to the Arab-owned Salam building in Haifa (a 7 story block of apartments and shops) by Zionists who drove an army lorry ( truck) up to the building and escaped before the detonation of 400 Ib. of explosives; casualties numbered 11 Arabs and 3 Armenians killed and 23 injured. The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the incident.

[color="red"]March 22, 1948.[/color] A housing block in Iraq Street in Haifa was blown up killing 17 and injuring 100 others. Four members of the Stern Gang drove two truck-loads of explosives into the street and abandoned the vehicles before the explosion.

[color="red"]March 31, 1948.[/color] The Cairo-Haifa Express was mined, for the second time in a month, by an electronically-detonated land mine near Benyamina, killing 40 persons and wounding 60 others.

[color="red"]April 9, 1948.[/color] A combined force of Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang, supported by the Palmach forces, captured the Arab village of Deir Yassin and killed more than 200 unarmed civilians, including countless women and children. Older men and young women were captured and paraded in chains in the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem; 20 of the hostages were then shot in the quarry of Gevaat Shaul.

[color="red"]April 16, 1948.[/color] Zionists attacked the former British army camp at Tel Litvinsky, killing 90 Arabs there.

[color="red"]April 19, 1948.[/color] Fourteen Arabs were killed in a house in Tiberias, which was blown up by Zionist terrorists.

[color="red"]May 3, 1948.[/color] A book bomb addressed to a British Army officer, who had been stationed in Palestine exploded, killing his brother, Rex Farran.

[color="red"]May11, 1948.[/color] A letter bomb addressed to Sir Evelyn Barker, former Commanding Officer in Palestine, was detected in the nick of time by his wife.

[color="red"]April 25, 1948 -- May 13, 1948.[/color] Wholesale looting of Jaffa was carried out following armed attacks by Irgun and Haganah terrorists. They stripped and carried away everything they could, destroying what they could not take with them.
[url="http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm"]http://guardian.150m...h-terrorism.htm[/url]

BTW, you can also read about the true history of the Israeli/Palestine conflict in two books.

"The Lemon Tree," by Sandy Tolan.

"IMAGE AND REALITY OF THE ISRAEL-PALESTINE CONFLICT" by Norm Finkelstein.

Jim

Edited December 15, 2009 by JimR-OCDS

[Antigonos]

[quote name='Hassan' date='15 December 2009 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1260869220' post='2020874']
Well. Do you count Shaba and Shatila as one incident or two? Are the illegal settlements that rob Palestinians of their land one large offense against the Palestinians or an aggregate of countless individual offenses? How about the recent findings of the UN regarding Israel's illegal and negligent actions during the 2009 incursion into Gaza? What about the forced displacement of Palestinian civilians during the 1948 war? The countless offenses committed regularly in the Occupied Territories?
[/quote]


Right. One by one.

Sabra and Shatilla was not an Israeli action. It was Lebanese soldiers who stormed the camps, some of whom were co-religionists of those in the camps.

The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, and all the non-Jewish residents are still living there.

The UN report has been totally condemned as garbage and biased by the civilized world. Israeli soldiers only went in after [b][u]7200 documented rocket attacks against Israeli civilians[/u][/b] living inside Israel happened. Further, Israel did its utmost to prevent civilian casualties, but what can one do if Hamas uses human shields and apartment buildings as ammo dumps? BTW, the Hamas leadership saved itself by hiding in the basement of the Gaza City hospital, using patients on the floors above as hostages. This is documented.

The only persons who forced Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 were other Arabs, who threatened "Palestinians" with reprisals as collaborators if they remained, "when" they "reconquered" Israel. This is documented.

What atrocities? Do you know that maternal mortality on the West Bank has declined 68% since Israel took over the administration? That the per capita income of the non-Jewish residents is several times what it was between 1948-1967? That more "Palestinians" have been killed by other "Palestinians" than all the casualties they caused Israel since 1967?

Do you know that the "warlord" of Jericho, Rajoub Jibril, likes to kidnap rich "Palestinians" for ransom, which is why every month several hundred "Palestinians" apply for Israeli citizenship because that gives them some protection?

Do you know that, in spite of getting huge sums of money from the EU, nearly all of which goes either for arms or into the pockets of the corrupt leaders of both the PA and Hamas, Israel supplies Gaza with food, medical supplies, electricity and water? That the EU is actually paying for the private army Hamas is now using against its own people?

Do you know that farmers in the PA actually choose to market their produce through Israel if they can because they get better prices for it? Whenever European countries think to "punish" Israel, they are punishing the "Palestinians" whose "side" they are mistakenly getting [there is a big problem with the quality, however, and a great deal doesn't meet EU standards]

Get your facts right.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='15 December 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1260887651' post='2020908']
Right. One by one.

Sabra and Shatilla was not an Israeli action. It was Lebanese soldiers who stormed the camps, some of whom were co-religionists of those in the camps. [/QUOTE]

The militants who actually did the slaughtering were Christian Lebonese nationalists. Their slaughter was facilitated by the IDF, particularly with the assistance of Sharon.

[QUOTE]The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, and all the non-Jewish residents are still living there.[/QUOTE]

I don't care what Biblical kingdom was claimed to have existed there x thousands of years ago. The West Bank was not part of the Israeli state and I believe international law has a precedent regarding the inadmissibility of land taken the course of war conquered.

[QUOTE]The UN report has been totally condemned as garbage and biased by the civilized world.[/QUOTE]

By the civilized world you mean what? You and John Bolton?

[QUOTE]Israeli soldiers only went in after [b][u]7200 documented rocket attacks against Israeli civilians[/u][/b] living inside Israel happened. Further, Israel did its utmost to prevent civilian casualties, but what can one do if Hamas uses human shields and apartment buildings as ammo dumps? BTW, the Hamas leadership saved itself by hiding in the basement of the Gaza City hospital, using patients on the floors above as hostages. This is documented.[/QUOTE]

Documented byy who? Not that dastardly UN I hope.

[QUOTE]The only persons who forced Arabs to leave their homes in 1948 were other Arabs, who threatened "Palestinians" with reprisals as collaborators if they remained, "when" they "reconquered" Israel. This is documented.[/QUOTE]

You know, you saying that x is documented doesn't mean it is documented. Benny Morris published internal IDF reports which actually did document the forced expulsion of Palestinians by Israeli forces. You can look that up either in Dr. Morris' article or "Broadcasts" by Christopher Hitchens.

[QUOTE]What atrocities? Do you know that maternal mortality on the West Bank has declined 68% since Israel took over the administration? That the per capita income of the non-Jewish residents is several times what it was between 1948-1967? That more "Palestinians" have been killed by other "Palestinians" than all the casualties they caused Israel since 1967?

now that the "warlord" of Jericho, Rajoub Jibril, likes to kidnap rich "Palestinians" for ransom, which is why every month several hundred "Palestinians" apply for Israeli citizenship because that gives them some protection?

Do you know that, in spite of getting huge sums of money from the EU, nearly all of which goes either for arms or into the pockets of the corrupt leaders of both the PA and Hamas, Israel supplies Gaza with food, medical supplies, electricity and water? That the EU is actually paying for the private army Hamas is now using against its own people?

Do you know that farmers in the PA actually choose to market their produce through Israel if they can because they get better prices for it? Whenever European countries think to "punish" Israel, they are punishing the "Palestinians" whose "side" they are mistakenly getting [there is a big problem with the quality, however, and a great deal doesn't meet EU standards]

Get your facts right.
[/quote]

What the hell does your slipshod collection of various 'facts' of the day have to do with the price of tea in flippin China?

Throwing out a random assortment of claims regarding the positive influence of the Israeli occupation does not cancel out the negative aspects. Let's grant, purely for the sake of argument, that every generalized claim you've made is of the most pristine truth. That doesn't mean the various abusive and illegal actions Israel subjects the Palestinians to under the Occupation suddenly disappears. If you want to refute actual charges I make fine. If you want to admit the harsh reality of abuses and oppression suffered by Palestinians under the Israeli occupation, but insist that the net benefit of the Israeli occupation is an overall good then that's fine. But throwing out unsupported claims with no coherent, contextualizing argument is worthless.

[JimR-OCDS]

Antigonos


[quote]
The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967.
[/quote]

This is somewhat misleading. During UN negotiations on whether a petitioned Jewish State would be
established, rather than a secular representative state, the Zionist negotiated an agreement with King Abdullah of Jordan. In that agreement, if the King backed the Jewish State proposal at the UN talks, Jordan would be allowed to expand into the West Bank. King Abdullah agreed and backed the Zionist proposal. However, once the war began in 1948 and Israeli troops were moving further into the West Bank, Jordan realized that the Zionist had deceived them, and so they fought back, taking part of the area there.

Jim

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='15 December 2009 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1260887651' post='2020908']
The West Bank was liberated from illegal seizure by Jordan, which captured the territory in 1948, in 1967. Judea and Samaria are the heartland of the Davidic Kingdom of Israel, and all the non-Jewish residents are still living there.[/quote]
I just want to say that, as a descendant of Frenchmen, I think that the land of Palestine rightfully belongs to me. Even though it is historically dubious that I'm actually descended from any of the Latin Franks who conquered the Levant 800 years ago, I still think that it belongs to ME and not to any one else, even if they are currently living there. I also think that we should kick out anyone currently living there right now, and use brutal force to set up an imperialist government.

Edited December 16, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Pomak]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='15 December 2009 - 05:12 AM' timestamp='1260814358' post='2020366']
Yes Pro-Islamic. Judging from the article Hussain posted and others like it from that site, it does seem very Pro-Islamic. I understand from past debates with Islamic Apologists that any news article that is critical of Islamic is propaganda, like you have just argued.

The fact remains Hamas did in fact enact a law that legalizes Crucifixion, and Christians are often persecuted in Hamas controlled territory.

The 'problem' with the State of Israel is that it is 'run by Jews.' The hate the middle east has for Jews is astounding, the Jew is portrayed as evil, and vile in very popular propaganda. Even before the creation of Israel Jews were in danger in Muslim nations, many Arab nations sided with the Axes Powers, and Hitler was very popular and his ideology was very popular in Islamic nations.
[/quote]

The irony of this coming from a Catholic is astonishing.
For the record the places where the political leaders sided with the Nazis the people and religious leaders generally opposed them. And Albania had more jews in the country after the war then there was before.

[quote]

Everything in that statement, apart from noting the origins of yourpeople [which indeed was part of the problem of the Balkans, thatvarious ethnic groups felt they had prior rights and that others[Moslems, as a matter of fact] were interlopers who settled thereduring the Ottoman period, is false, and can be shown to be so, if youwould take the time to do some proper research. I can recommend fullydocumented reading if you wish. I would appreciate it if you would stopregurgitating lies and propaganda. Remember that Jesus was a Jew, andif he were in Israel today, the "Palestinians" would be trying to killhim.[/quote]

1. My people are not Muslim.
2. My people lived in the Balkans back when there were like 5 countries in Europe(France, Italy, Byzantium, Spain and us)
3. If Jesus was alive he would ask, why is Judaism linked to an atheist ideology?

[quote]

Further, it might interest you to know that 20% of the population ofIsrael is Arab, fully enfranchised citizens* under the law. Most areMoslems. Arabic is the second official language of Israel, and there isa public school system that teaches in Arabic, and where the studentslearn Koran and Islam [Hebrew and English are second languages] Everymonth there are several hundred applications for Israeli citizenshipwhich are made by "Palestinians" who find PA/Hamas intolerable. Thatshows just how terribly Israelis treat "Palestinians".[/quote]

Oh thats right, those citizen who perpresent 20% of the population and get 2% of state funding and get 0 help from schemes that seek to help Jews to buy land. Tell me what about the beduin villages that are in Israel but are not recognized as citizens? Or rampant racism, amoungst (some)Jews in Israel about living next to the Arabs.

[quote]

In 1948 two things happened which go largely unnoticed: over 800,000Jews in Moslem countries had to flee for their lives with only theclothes on their backs to Israel, while the Arab countries whichsurround Israel, after declaring war on Israel, warned the Arabinhabitants that they would be punished as collaborators "when" theArab armies were victorious and pushed the Jews into the sea, and [i]because of that[/i],the Arabs fled their homes. So far from being evicted, Israeli armyofficers actually tried to urge residents of some towns to remain, butthe villagers didn't want to take a chance. This is documented**. NoArab country was willing to resettle the refugees who had been lockedinto the Gaza Strip by Egypt. Israel not only took in all the Jews whosurvived the Holocaust, they took in all those from Moslem countries,and still today is a place of refuge for Jews who are persecuted. Egyptwill not allow "Palestinians" to leave the Gaza Strip, and"Palestinians" in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan are kept in camps becausethey have more than once attempted to overthrow the host countrygovernments. King Hussain of Jordan survived over 40 assassinationattempts
[/quote]

LOL, the pushing the Jews into the see was not used back then It was done during the 1967 war. In 48 the arab leaders made some comments tha they gave 1 gun for every 100 men and that it would be sufficient. And what you totally misrepresent is that there was a war between the jews and arab in palestine afterwhich there were massacres. There are authentic reports that today are recognized by even zionists, the only difference is if massacres were the norm or if was just exceptions.

And considering that Israel killed 500 children in Gaza I do not think that you have any right to talk about the evils of Egypt. See the difference between you and me is that I recognize that politicians in the Middle East (with possible exception with some in Turkey) are all rotten. I hold no utopian views, but I insist on justice for the people.

[quote]The assertion that Israel uses "slave labor" is worse than absurd."Palestinians" fight for the chance to work for Israeli employers,because they have conditions and pay whichare so much better than withArab employers [when there is work at all]. Israel is in a no-winsituation: the charge is made that they exploit Arab labor, yet if theborder crossings are closed, Israel is accused of starving the Arabs bynot letting them work. You can't have it both ways. In addition, theEuropean Union gives the "Palestinians" 40 million Euros a month, whichdoes not go toward making Gaza livable, it goes for buying guns. Hamascares nothing for its constituents, and indeed, is beginning to look alot like the Taliban. Gazans are faking illness in order to crossIsrael [Gazans are treated in Israeli hospitals for serious illnesses,another evidence of Israeli "brutality", I suppose] and get to the PAcontrolled West Bank, which is less extreme. This also has beendocumented.[/quote]

Right this is where you bloc off medical aid and concrete? And you tell Egypt to stop even those essential items from coming in? Or this is where the IDF bombs the free trade zone that was set up by Turkey in palestine to inprove the economy?

[quote]
I should further note that only today an Israeli woman was stabbed by a"Palestinian", and a Kassam rocket was launched on the town of Shderotfrom the Gaza Strip.[/quote]

Oh your the zionist that still believes the lies of Palestine being "a land without a people"?

[quote]
*Not only do Israeli Arabs, both men and women, have the vote, theyhave several Members in the Israeli Parliament [from their own parties,although most Israeli Arabs choose to vote Labor]. Israeli Arabchildren, of both sexes, have compulsory education until age 16. Girlscannot be married before 17 which is the age of consent. Although thereligious authorities control divorce, instead of simply saying "Idivorce you" three times, a man must wait at least a month betweenrepetitions of the words, and they must be pronounced in an authorizedIslamic court. Illiteracy, especially among girls, is widespread incertain Arab countries, women do not have the vote in some countries,nor can they drive, and if divorced -- which can be done in the spaceof less than five minutes-- they not only have no recourse, they losecustody over their children.[/quote]
yet they can not marry anyone from the West bank or Gaza because Israel does not allow those people to come into Israel, not does it give them citizenship. Secondly if any arab goes to an "enemy state"(aka any muslim state) he can be thrown out of the paliment and most likely spend some times in Israeli jails. Speaking of Israeli jails do you want me to bring up the Israeli jails and torture facilities that were run in southern lebanon? I hear you guys gave a few lesson to the Lebanese on how to torture people properly.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Pomak' date='15 December 2009 - 09:56 PM' timestamp='1260932165' post='2021602']
The irony of this coming from a Catholic is astonishing.
For the record the places where the political leaders sided with the Nazis the people and religious leaders generally opposed them. And Albania had more jews in the country after the war then there was before.
[/quote]


[url="http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=10023"]FrontPage Magazine: Nazi Influence on the Middle East During WWII[/url]

Very exstenive article, so exstenive that it would be tooooo long to post.

[Antigonos]

If it is lists you want, [url="http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_Israeli_civilian_casualties_in_the_Second_Intifada"]here[/url] is a partial list of non-combatant Israeli casualties in the second intifada, with other links and full documentation as to source.

For lists of Qassam rocket attacks see:
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001%E2%80%932006[/url] [partial list only]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2008[/url]

I am not really shocked, or even surprised, at the pervasive anti-Semitism on this forum, disguised as either anti-Israelism or Christian assumptions of superiority. Both the Church, and Islam, have long histories of both oppression and persecution of the Jews. I am saddened however. I joined because I have long lurked on Vocation Station and wanted to be able to post there, since I have an interest in spiritual matters, and ways of spiritual life.

So, I shall say goodbye here. The following is an article which appeared in the English language version of Haaretz, a liberal Israeli newspaper. I hope it will kindle a little soul searching.













Lieberman: New anti-Semitism directed at Israel



By Haaretz Service











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Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman warned Wednesday that "new anti-Semitism" was aimed at undermining Israel, as well as a hatred of the Jewish people.

Certain elements are "using anti-Semitism to incite hatred of Jews and to delegitimize Israel," Lieberman told a conference on anti-Semitism in Jerusalem.

The foreign minister said that new anti-Semitism had its roots in the 2001 anti-racism Durban conference, with its harsh condemnation of Israel at the height of a bloody conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.



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"There is no other independent nation in the world whose right to exist is constantly questioned the way Israel's is," Lieberman said.

"The people behind the [global] assault against Israel have crossed the line," he said. "They seek to destroy the Jewish state and take away the right of the Jewish people to define themselves."

Lieberman condemned the recent [url="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1135497.html"]arrest warrant issued in Britain[/url] against former foreign minister and current opposition leader Tzipi Livni.

The British court issued an arrest warrant against Livni for her role in orchestrating Israel's military offensive against Hamas in the Gaza Strip nearly a year ago. Lieberman remarked, half-joking, that soon Britain would issue arrest warrants against NATO forces over warfare in Afghanistan and in Iran. "It is in Britain's interest, not Israel's, to make a change," he said.

In his address, Lieberman also addressed the issue of Iran's controversial nuclear program, expressing concern over Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's calls for Israel's destruction, coupled with Tehran's nuclear program.

"It is frightening that just 60 years after the horrors of the Holocaust, today we see examples of anti-Semitism funded by Iran. [Iran] denies the Holocaust even happened, calls for the destruction of Israel and tries to obtain nuclear weapons. All these facts are reminiscent of what happened 70 years ago."

Addressing the conference, Diaspora Affairs and Public Diplomacy Minister Yuli Edelstein echoed Lieberman's comments that new anti-Semitism was directed at Israel.

"It is no longer the individual Jew or a Council of Jewish Elders who has led the world into war and economic collapse - it is Israel, the state of the Jews, who have brought war and tragedy to the globe," Edelstein said.

"Where Jews were once depicted as blood thirsty, stingy, morally corrupt baby killers, after the horrors of World War Two, these depictions of Jews are hard for many to stomach. So the attack has been reframed and reworded. There are no more Jews. Instead there are Israelis. Israeli soldiers kill babies. Israeli soldiers attack pregnant mothers. Israelis started wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," he continued.

"Israel as a nation was not put through a Holocaust. Israelis have not been expelled, converted, exiled and enslaved. So if you attack Israel, you are not picking on the weak. Anti-Semites have warped tiny Israel into Goliath. This way you can hate Israel, you can hate Israelis, and you are not called anti-Semitic," he said.

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the children of Israel were set apart because this was the chosen community through which would come the Saviour of the world, his birthday is celebrated