Text I Received

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='04 January 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1262659041' post='2029877']
There's only two things I hate: people who are intolerant of other cultures, and the Dutch.
[/quote]

VeniteAdoremus is crying right now.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 January 2010 - 09:13 PM' timestamp='1262661200' post='2029918']
VeniteAdoremus is crying right now.


[/quote]

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 January 2010 - 08:07 AM' timestamp='1262610468' post='2029458']
That wasn't hate speech, and it wasn't using God's name in vain. Did you read the whole sermon? It was dramatic, yes, but it was a dramatic contradiction of the saccharine, vain idea that no matter what, "God will bless America." The preacher was condemning the presumption and wickedness of Americans, saying America did not [i]deserve[/i] to be blessed.

This preacher's words weren't much different from Hosea's, when he said that Israel was going around with a harlot. Hosea's words weren't welcomed by the majority, either.

While not referring to you and your consternation at the preacher's words, as I don't think you understood the context, Ed, any condemnation of the wicked aspects of American culture seems to be considered blasphemy among some "Christians." That's a problem.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Stern, man you are either ignoring the fact that the Rev, used the name of God as a curse word, or you are purposely trying to skew my post for some reason. I guess as a catholic you realize you are not allowed to swear to God, taking oaths with his name is blasphemous. Whether the Rev, had good intentions as you are promoting through your post is moot, he used the name of God in conjunction with a curseword or possibly in this case literally a damnation and that is blasphemous. By the way I read the speech and I seen the whole thing on the church website before they pulled it, they had it in transcript and video for sale until it garnered too much negative attention and they pulled it down, sounds like his own church had reasons to worry about the speech and its context.

Someone else posted that Rush was fired by the company that hired him and thats free market in an attempt to show my statement as wrongful, I guess he chose to ignore where I posted that Freedom of speech does not guarantee freedom from reprecussion. If you guys are going to refute a post you really shoul be certain of what you post and actually read the post you are attemtpting to refute.

Another posted something along the lines that we are not restrained from using the "n" word under the hate crimes act, wow, I guess I could post a link to the hate crimes act but would one who wrote that even bother to read it? This is like arguing with a child, naw-naw-naw-naw its true cuz I said so.

ed

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 January 2010 - 12:05 AM' timestamp='1262667940' post='2030029']
Stern, man you are either ignoring the fact that the Rev, used the name of God as a curse word, or you are purposely trying to skew my post for some reason. I guess as a catholic you realize you are not allowed to swear to God, taking oaths with his name is blasphemous. Whether the Rev, had good intentions as you are promoting through your post is moot, he used the name of God in conjunction with a curseword or possibly in this case literally a damnation and that is blasphemous. By the way I read the speech and I seen the whole thing on the church website before they pulled it, they had it in transcript and video for sale until it garnered too much negative attention and they pulled it down, sounds like his own church had reasons to worry about the speech and its context.
[/quote]

He was not saying, "May God beaver dam America" when he said "God Bless America? No! God **** (on a Catholic site?) America!" He was condemning the ideas and the wicked actions of Americans. Damnable actions. Literally. Hardly taking God's name in vain, calling down a curse, or a blasphemy. It was a judgment, which he probably could have worded better, judging by the reception.

Of course they pulled it down. When you start blaspheming people's god, they tend to start withholding donations. Many were probably upset because they, like you, incorrectly perceived the meaning of his statement.

~Sternhauser

Edited January 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Ed Normile]

I will try this again as it disappeared the first time I posted it , the hate crimes act is H.R. 1913, it was signed into law surreptitiously October 28 2008 by President Obama as a rider to the National Defense act, it was done this way as it is a far reaching law which is probably illegal, and yes virginia it does include verbal abuse and insults, even offensive graffitti!

Its official name is [b] [/b]the[b] Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act. [/b]I researched all this back in early October when this law was being scammed through congress by a bullying majority.

It allows the feds to pick up prosecution of hate crimes that any state has decided is not a hate crime, thats the illegal part or unconstitutional part for those who still beleive in the constitution, taking power from individual states and passing it the federal government, scary stuff.

Here is a Wiki, sorry I did not look for a youtube or twitter for the kiddies, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime, this should help the uninformed.

ed

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 January 2010 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1262669475' post='2030037']
He was not saying, "May God beaver dam America" when he said "God Bless America? No! God **** (on a Catholic site?) America!" He was condemning the ideas and the wicked actions of Americans. Damnable actions. Literally. Hardly taking God's name in vain, calling down a curse, or a blasphemy. It was a judgment, which he probably could have worded better, judging by the reception.

Of course they pulled it down. When you start blaspheming people's god, they tend to start withholding donations. Many were probably upset because they, like you, incorrectly perceived the meaning of his statement.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Stern my friend, you still state I incorrectly percieved his meaning, I refer you to your own post "[b]Of course they pulled it down. When you start blaspheming people's god, they tend to start withholding donations[/b]." that is what I just said he used the Most Holy name of God in a blasphemous curse aimed at America. You infer you read the speech/sermon, then you know he condemned ALL of America by the actions in a legal case where , according to the Rev Wright , a man was falsely imprisoned and killed for a crime he did not commit. Do you condemn ALL muslims for the acts of a few terrorists, do you condemn the whole Roman Catholic Church for the actions of a relatively small amount of pedophile priests, do you condemn all of Africa for the misdeeds of terrorists from certain areas, do you condemn the whole U.S. judicial system for the mistakes of one court? Man I would hope not.

ed

Edited January 5, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 January 2010 - 12:49 AM' timestamp='1262670570' post='2030046']
Stern my friend, you still state I incorrectly percieved his meaning, I refer you to your own post "[b]Of course they pulled it down. When you start blaspheming people's god, they tend to start withholding donations[/b]." that is what I just said he used the Most Holy name of God in a blasphemous curse aimed at America."[/quote]


No, Ed. I did not say the Triune God. I said [i]their[/i] god. A passage from the good reverend's speech should clarify: "Say 'confusing God and Government.' Now if you don't mind, if you don't mind, I'm going to hang out here, homilificate for just a little while,and then I'm going to let you go home. I've got to pause here, however,as a pastor because a lot of people still confused, 2000 years later,they still confuse God with their Government."

[quote]"You infer you read the speech/sermon, then you know he condemned ALL of America by the actions in a legal case where , according to the Rev Wright , a man was falsely imprisoned and killed for a crime he did not commit. Do you condemn ALL muslims for the acts of a few terrorists, do you condemn the whole Roman Catholic Church for the actions of a relatively small amount of pedophile priests, do you condemn all of Africa for the misdeeds of terrorists from certain areas, do you condemn the whole U.S. judicial system for the mistakes of of court? Man I would hope not.
ed
[/quote]

I condemn aggressive (the true meaning of the word) and belligerent "men," and the ideas they believe in. Militarism. Exceptionalism. Nationalism. That happens to be what the pastor spoke against in his sermon. Not "the acts of a few men." And it [i]certainly [/i]wasn't about an isolated legal case. It was about the [i]majority mindset[/i] that [i]puts [/i]and [i]keeps[/i] those violent, militaristic, exceptionalist, nationalist "men" [i]in power.

[/i]His was one of the most outstanding sermons I've read OR heard since General Smedley Butler's "War Is A Racket" speech. I encourage everyone to read it.

[url="http://www.sluggy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=315691&sid=4b3e97ace4ee8cee02bd6850e52f50b7"]http://www.sluggy.ne...2bd6850e52f50b7[/url]

~Sternhauser

Edited January 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 January 2010 - 01:48 AM' timestamp='1262674130' post='2030081']
No, Ed. I did not say the Triune God. I said [i]their[/i] god. A passage from the good reverend's speech should clarify: "Say 'confusing God and Government.' Now if you don't mind, if you don't mind, I'm going to hang out here, homilificate for just a little while,and then I'm going to let you go home. I've got to pause here, however,as a pastor because a lot of people still confused, 2000 years later,they still confuse God with their Government."



I condemn aggressive (the true meaning of the word) and belligerent "men," and the ideas they believe in. Militarism. Exceptionalism. Nationalism. That happens to be what the pastor spoke against in his sermon. Not "the acts of a few men." And it [i]certainly [/i]wasn't about an isolated legal case. It was about the [i]majority mindset[/i] that [i]puts [/i]and [i]keeps[/i] those violent, militaristic, exceptionalist, nationalist "men" [i]in power.

[/i]His was one of the most outstanding sermons I've read OR heard since General Smedley Butler's "War Is A Racket" speech. I encourage everyone to read it.

[url="http://www.sluggy.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=315691&sid=4b3e97ace4ee8cee02bd6850e52f50b7"]http://www.sluggy.ne...2bd6850e52f50b7[/url]

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
So Stern, by your reasoning all of America is bad as its leaders are bad? I guess that would include Obama as bad as he was[i] put[/i] in power? The Reverend Wright is a christian are you saying by your statement " No, Ed. I did not say the Triune God. I said [i]their[/i] god." that he is not a christian and worships his own god? Funny you do not find the Rev, Wright as aggressive or belligerent? I am curious as how you as a pastor assume I confuse God with my government, this statement is laughable. I am certain you can read, I posted several times he used God's name in vain, let me clarify and say he used it in vain with a curse word WHILE condemning America. I hope that is clear enough, you may use the scroll bar on your screen to reread anything I posted. No matter how you try to change what I wrote I never said anywhere he used the name of my government in vain, shew! This is demeaning to address.

ed

[Ed Normile]

By the way, what the heck patty does the link you posted have to do with clarifying anything in this thread. First off an opinion piece written by "Freaky Boy" does not carry much weight. Do you assume that no one will link to this and realize it is one kids opinion? Sure he may indeed be the "Evil game minister of DOOM!!" but does that lend him credibility on this, or for that matter, ANY topic, save the computer game doom?

Dazed and Confused !!

ed

[Ed Normile]

Another thought for your musings Stern, as the Rev Wright was addressing blacks not to sing God Bless America, rather sing G** beaver dam America, which god do YOU think he was referring to, the Triune God is what the song is written about, how do confuse this with "their" god?

ed

Edited January 5, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Ed Normile]

What is with the beaver dam, I did not write that and when I edited it it came back again??

ed

[Arpy]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 January 2010 - 12:35 AM' timestamp='1262676927' post='2030100']
What is with the beaver dam, I did not write that and when I edited it it came back again??

ed
[/quote]
That'll be the fiddler messing with your croutons.

[CatherineM]

I remember having a class discussion about this once, and was told that white people never think it is about color, and people of color always think it is.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 January 2010 - 02:15 AM' timestamp='1262675757' post='2030089']
So Stern, by your reasoning all of America is bad as its leaders are bad?
[/quote]
Ed,

"America" is not the United State. (Not a typo.) And a "leader" is not someone with a gun who stands behind you and tells you what to do. The good pastor seemed to be conflating "America" with the "United State," as so many do.


[quote]I guess that would include Obama as bad as he was[i] put[/i] in power? [/quote]
Insofar as anyone believes he has the right to rob and aggressively threaten people at gunpoint, including doing so by proxy? Yes. Yes, such a "leader" [i]is[/i] bad to that extent.


[quote]The Reverend Wright is a christian are you saying by your statement " No, Ed. I did not say the Triune God. I said [i]their[/i] god." that he is not a christian and worships his own god?[/quote]
I said he blasphemed their god. He blasphemed the god of Exceptionalism. He blasphemed the god of Militarism. He blasphemed the god of Aggression.


[quote]Funny you do not find the Rev, Wright as aggressive or belligerent?[/quote]
He is vehement and violent against the military State. There is nothing "aggressive" about that. Aggression is not a synonym for "violence." His vehemence was not any more than that of Hosea and the other prophets, calling the nation of Israel, for all practical purposes, a "woman of loose morals." Think "a word that rhymes with mutt."

[quote] I am curious as how you as a pastor assume I confuse God with my government, this statement is laughable.[/quote]
Lots of people confuse idols with the One True God. I'm not claiming you confuse God with "your" State. I'm not a pastor. He is.


[quote]I am certain you can read, I posted several times he used God's name in vain, let me clarify and say he used it in vain with a curse word WHILE condemning America.[/quote]
If the name is said with reverence, there is nothing wrong with saying "God **** America," as long as you are saying it not as a curse, but as a shocking contradiction of the mindset of the world, ordered to the glory of God. He was really saying, if you read properly, "On the contrary! God will not bless America, God will [i]beaver dam [/i]America, and America does not [i]deserve[/i] to be blessed." His choice of words for the expression of that idea should have been better, but I cannot, with any honesty, say that he deliberately blasphemed God by disrespecting His name.


[quote]I hope that is clear enough, you may use the scroll bar on your screen to reread anything Iposted. No matter how you try to change what I wrote I never said anywhere he used the name of my government in vain, shew! This is demeaning to address.
ed[/quote]
I fully understand that you think he blasphemed the Triune God, and that you were apparently outraged by that. I am saying that the outrage exhibited by the populace at large was not outrage prompted by any alleged abuse of God's name, which is an abuse that "Christians" do every day without blinking. I doubt that if a preacher simply took the Lord's name without any context of the State, that it would have awakened your wrath as it has. As for the outrage of the majority? I firmly believe that it was outrage prompted by the condemnation of their gods: Militarism, Nationalism, Aggression, and Exceptionalism. Because popular figures take the name of the Lord in vain every day, with no repercussions. It's done in movies played across the country countless times. The outrage at Bush over his alleged "[the Constitution] is nothing but a _____ piece of paper" would have been the same if he had [i]not [/i]been alleged to blaspheme the name of "God."

~Sternhauser

Edited January 9, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='09 January 2010 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1263051244' post='2033203']
Ed,

"America" is not the United State. (Not a typo.) And a "leader" is not someone with a gun who stands behind you and tells you what to do. The good pastor seemed to be conflating "America" with the "United State," as so many do.



Insofar as anyone believes he has the right to rob and aggressively threaten people at gunpoint, including doing so by proxy? Yes. Yes, such a "leader" [i]is[/i] bad to that extent.



I said he blasphemed their god. He blasphemed the god of Exceptionalism. He blasphemed the god of Militarism. He blasphemed the god of Aggression.



He is vehement and violent against the military State. There is nothing "aggressive" about that. Aggression is not a synonym for "violence." His vehemence was not any more than that of Hosea and the other prophets, calling the nation of Israel, for all practical purposes, a "woman of loose morals." Think "a word that rhymes with mutt."



Lots of people confuse idols with the One True God. I'm not claiming you confuse God with "your" State. I'm not a pastor. He is.



If the name is said with reverence, there is nothing wrong with saying "God beaver dam America," as long as you are saying it not as a curse, but as a shocking contradiction of the mindset of the world. He was really saying, if you read properly, "On the contrary! God will not bless America, God will [i]beaver dam [/i]America, and America does not [i]deserve[/i] to be blessed." His choice of words for the expression of that idea should have been better, but I cannot, with any honesty, say that he deliberately blasphemed God by disrespecting His name.



I fully understand that you think he blasphemed the Triune God, and that you were apparently outraged by that. I am saying that the outrage exhibited by the populace at large was not outrage prompted by any alleged abuse of God's name, which is an abuse that "Christians" do every day without blinking. I doubt that if a preacher simply took the Lord's name without any context of the State, that it would have awakened your wrath. As for the outrage of the majority? I firmly believe that it was outrage prompted by the condemnation of their gods: Militarism, Nationalism, Aggression, and Exceptionalism. Because popular figures take the name of the Lord in vain every day, with no repercussions. It's done in movies played across the country countless times. The outrage at Bush over his alleged "[the Constitution] is nothing but a _____ piece of paper" would have been the same if he had [i]not [/i]been alleged to blaspheme the name of "God."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
Stern you posted this "No, Ed. I did not say the Triune God. I said [i]their[/i]god. A passage from the good reverend's speech should clarify: "Say'confusing God and Government.' Now if you don't mind, if you don'tmind, I'm going to hang out here, homilificate for just a littlewhile,and then I'm going to let you go home. I've got to pause here,however,as a pastor because a lot of people still confused, 2000 yearslater,they still confuse God with their Government."
The part in your post where you wrote "I've got to pause here, however, as a[u][b] pastor[/b][/u] because a lot of people sill confused" etc. ? This clearly is the part which I asumed you identified you as a pastor.This was my mistake, probably due to reading this stuff so late at night, forgive me my friend
By the way do you have any reference to President Bush' alleged remark, this is one I never heard of, which is hard to believe with the prominence of the media's attention to every speaking gaff he ever uttered.
You say you beleive "I firmly believe that it was outrage prompted by the condemnation of their gods: Militarism, Nationalism, Aggression, and Exceptionalism" I must say there are those who believe America bombed the twin towers and set up the war for some nefarious reason, also those who beleive they wer impregnated or probed by aliens in a spaceship, however you base your beleif system is none of my concern, however, Rev Wright did say "they sing God bless America, they should sing God **** America" are you trying to say that Irvine Berlin's tune which is widely recognised as taking the form of a prayer with intro lyrics like "as we raise our voices in solemn paryer" and stand beside her and guide her through the night, with the light from above" somehow speaks of "their gods : Militarism etc."? This song is even in evey catholic hymn book I have ever read here in the states, and even one catholic church in Montego Bay Jamaica I attended as a youth.

Maybe this will help you my friend , [color="#ff0000"] EX 20:7; Deut 5:11[/color] You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. [color="#ff0000"] Mt 5:33-34[/color] You have heard that it was said to the men of old, "You shall not swear falsely.. But I say to you, Do not swear at all. and from the[color="#0000ff"] Catechism of the Catholic Church[/color] [color="#8b0000"]C.C.C[/color]. 2149 Oaths which misuse God's name, though without the intention of blasphemy, show lack of respect for the Lord. The second commandment also forbids magical use of the divine name.[color="#8b0000"] C.C.C.[/color] 1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance"; [color="#ff0000"]2 Pet 3;9

[color="#000000"]In closing my friend, I do not see how you can defend this man, the song God bless America is clearly religious in the sense it asks for a blessing upon America from the One true and Triune God, Rev. Wright clearly used this song to utter a condemnation (curse) against America, he uses His Holy Name to try to bring disgrace to a predominately christian nation, a willful misuse of His name, He use of the word beaver dam infers sending t o hell which even God does not want any to do. Again let me add this sermon was for sale and could be seen in video or read at his church website freely, until it became an embarrassment to the President and then it was pulled down. Why else if this were truly such a wonderful sermon akin to those of Hosea (!?!) why then did they pull it down, one would naturally have to assume it was over the publicity embarrassing a President who attended this preacher listening to the ramblings of a hate filled old anti-american bigot for 20+ years, it seems that even the Presidents advisors are with me on this, you witness how he has distanced himself from this hate speaker.[/color]

[color="#000000"]ed[/color]
[/color]

Edited January 9, 2010 by Ed Normile

[desertwoman]

You should forward it to me. I guess my friends and I are just use to hearing people proud of being Italian, Irish, Greek, German, and so on. We rarely hear anyone say that they are proud of being white, and because when we hear of white pride we think of the white supremacist church and so forth.

When you say that you are proud to be Greek, Dutch, or any other culture... we don't usually think anything of it but we will ask questions of your culture and family life at home.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='09 January 2010 - 12:33 PM' timestamp='1263058436' post='2033234']
You should forward it to me. I guess my friends and I are just use to hearing people proud of being Italian, Irish, Greek, German, and so on. We rarely hear anyone say that they are proud of being white, and because when we hear of white pride we think of the white supremacist church and so forth.

When you say that you are proud to be Greek, Dutch, or any other culture... we don't usually think anything of it but we will ask questions of your culture and family life at home.
[/quote]

True that is the way it usually goes, I am proud to be irish, fat head and all. Along those lines you never see proud to be Haitian, or proud to be a Spanish Moor, or Proud to be Nigerian either, but that does not lead me to think of proud to be black or african as a rascist term calling for the downfall or death of whites, although I am sure that has been bandied about by some of the fanatics of those ethnic groups, as my father always told me "There are good and bad in every people."

ed

Edited January 9, 2010 by Ed Normile

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='03 January 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1262575224' post='2029265']
You are referring to biological things, I was more referencing the social and society viewpoint on race and etc.
[/quote]

Maybe I am misinterpreting this, but it seems like her reference to history was more of a reference to social and societal viewpoints than your interpretation that she was being biological...

[Lil Red]

[quote name='desertwoman' date='09 January 2010 - 10:33 AM' timestamp='1263058436' post='2033234']
You should forward it to me. I guess my friends and I are just use to hearing people proud of being Italian, Irish, Greek, German, and so on. We rarely hear anyone say that they are proud of being white, and because when we hear of white pride we think of the white supremacist church and so forth.

When you say that you are proud to be Greek, Dutch, or any other culture... we don't usually think anything of it but we will ask questions of your culture and family life at home.
[/quote]
+JMJ+
my parents talked to my sister. she says it was forwarded to her from her daughter (!!!), and didn't really read it. i am trying hard to give her the benefit of the doubt.

[Totus Tuus]

Clearly my opinion that white pride is legitimate was not taken well, but does no one see that it's a double standard to license the celebration of Black History Month and shun any celebration of white history? I am not encouraging either one; in fact, I think it's stupid to celebrate a color since you can be black in many cultures or white in many cultures, but I'm just upset about the double standard. You can close your eyes and pretend the viewpoint on black v. white is fair and balanced, but the truth is that any celebration of being black is highly applauded in this country, while any pride for being white would be labeled racist. I think a good argument could be made that either one is racist if we are celebrating color and NOT culture.

Just my .02.