Just When You Think Things Couldn't Get Worse In Haiti

[Marie-Therese]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='13 February 2010 - 05:07 PM' timestamp='1266098828' post='2056637']
older
[/quote]

This.

I have noticed of late that there seems to be a resurgence of 80s style attire. I lived through that once, and that is plenty. The minute I see a color block shirt or stirrup pants in a store I might go postal. Couldn't they pick another decade to redo?

[homeschoolmom]

Okay... well, I just had to do this. In addition to Band-Aid (British, Irish and Kool & the Gang) that started things off, here are the other offerings of charity songs in the 80s:

The original We Are the World (USA for Africa + Dan Aykroyd)



Tears are Not Enough (Northern Lights-- Canada) Can you spot: Corey Hart, Anne Murray, Paul Anka, Gordon Lightfoot and Bryan Adams?
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJN3u1wAWIk[/media]


Cantaré, Cantarás (Hermanos Project-- Latin celebrities) Look for Jose Feliciano, Placido Domingo, Ricky Martin, Cheech Marin and Ricardo Montalban...
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsRUGdegdc[/media]

[homeschoolmom]

Ethiopie (French Language singers)... I have no idea who to look for... don't know any of these people...
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4tiwF1yswM[/media]

Hear N Aid (Heavy Metal... man, that's a lot of hairspray)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZktrrqT1A0[/media]

[homeschoolmom]

There was a CCM offering (can for the life of me remember what it was called...)

And let us not forget Not Gonna Play Sun City (By Artists United Against Apartheid)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fk6ye17lqBo&feature=related[/media]


Hands Across America
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZorfXa5pBc[/media]

[homeschoolmom]

That's What Friends are For, which wasn't even an original song...
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGbnua2kSa8&feature=related[/media]

And Farm Aid and Comic Relief.... It was very hip to be generous in the 80s.

[Winchester]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='13 February 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1266093976' post='2056577']
Better notify God.

Last time I checked you don't commit an act of evil to do a good. That is not how it works. God does work through evil, but it is never the evil we ourselves make as in trying to do something correct or good.

Let God do with the world as He will, I think the thugs will get their justice eventually.
[/quote]
The Church says we can use lethal force to defend the innocent. Murder is evil, killing is permissible under certain conditions. God never commanded pacifism, and never ordered us to give up our lives or the lives of innocents to evil men. Pacifism is morally acceptable, but it is not an imperative.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Era Might' date='13 February 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1266093988' post='2056579']
There are many "causes" of thuggery. To say that thugs can be victims of social structures does not take away their moral agency.

Killing thugs might make a country [i]feel[/i] safer, but it doesn't actually make the country safer.

How long as America been in a war on drugs? How long as America been imprisoning people? How has that worked out?

Killing, like prison, only claims to be a solution. It is not actually a solution. It may serve some purpose, but it is not a solution.
[/quote]
It appears to work out better than the nations in which they do none of those things or do them poorly.

The dead guy is solved. Someone else might decide to be a bad guy, but the dead bad guy can pretty much just stink after a while. It does solve a problem. And violence works. If it didn't work, people wouldn't be wont to use it. I've solved more than one problem with properly applied violence.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Winchester' date='13 February 2010 - 07:17 PM' timestamp='1266106665' post='2056721']
It appears to work out better than the nations in which they do none of those things or do them poorly.

The dead guy is solved. Someone else might decide to be a bad guy, but the dead bad guy can pretty much just stink after a while. It does solve a problem. And violence works. If it didn't work, people wouldn't be wont to use it. I've solved more than one problem with properly applied violence.
[/quote]
Violence only pushes the problem to the side for a while, until it festers and returns with even more vengeance.

The American prison system is the perfect example of a false solution that only appears to solve a problem, but does not actually do so. Prisons create criminals at the same time that they punish them. Society "feels" safer because prisons push the problem to the margins. But society has not gotten rid of the problem by imprisoning it.

You have not solved any problems with violence, I assure you. If you had solved the problem, then you wouldn't need violence anymore. You may have accomplished some purpose with violence, but you did not solve any problems.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Era Might' date='13 February 2010 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1266114226' post='2056803']
Violence only pushes the problem to the side for a while, until it festers and returns with even more vengeance.

The American prison system is the perfect example of a false solution that only appears to solve a problem, but does not actually do so. Prisons create criminals at the same time that they punish them. Society "feels" safer because prisons push the problem to the margins. But society has not gotten rid of the problem by imprisoning it.

You have not solved any problems with violence, I assure you. If you had solved the problem, then you wouldn't need violence anymore. You may have accomplished some purpose with violence, but you did not solve any problems.
[/quote]
I never had a second fight with the same person. Problem solved. But I fought decisively. Sometimes people do seek revenge, but what's your answer? Be a victim? To argue that taking a similar action proves nothing was solved is asinine. I've made several fires, and I've solved each and every individual fire. The broad problem of the human condition is not solved, but your argument appears to support complete inaction, since "the problem isn't solved". I hate to tell you this, but being nice to thugs isn't a solution, either. It's certainly an occasion for Grace, but it won't protect the innocent with any surety. I'll use violence to protect me and mine when it's necessary--it has worked and it will work.

If you kill a thief, that thief is solved. Thievery isn't solved, but the problem from that one is. He will not return with a vengeance. According to your criteria, no problem is solved.

I have family members that straightened up after prison. The system needs work, admittedly.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Winchester' date='13 February 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1266115454' post='2056820']I'll use violence to protect me and mine when it's necessary--it has worked and it will work.[/quote]
We were discussing the problems that Haiti faces [i]as a nation[/i]. We were not discussing the problems faced by private individuals. Killing someone does not solve the social problem of violence anymore than housing a homeless person solves the social problem of homelessness. Sure, we could put a gun in the hands of every Haitian to make them "feel" safe. But that it isn't going to solve the underlying socioeconomic problems in their country. It's like killing your son if you find him using drugs. Is killing him really going to solve anything in your family? It will stop his drug use, but your family will only be the worse for killing him.

The United States has more military might than any nation in history. Yet the United States military is powerless to solve the problems of drugs, terrorism, prostitution, and any host of problems. If you were to put a gun in the hands of every American, I guarantee you that you still would not solve those problems.

If your goal is to push problems out of sight and out of mind, then violence will work. If your goal is to actually solve the underlying problems in society, then violence is powerless.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Winchester' date='13 February 2010 - 08:14 PM' timestamp='1266106466' post='2056720']
The Church says we can use lethal force to defend the innocent. Murder is evil, killing is permissible under certain conditions. God never commanded pacifism, and never ordered us to give up our lives or the lives of innocents to evil men. Pacifism is morally acceptable, but it is not an imperative.
[/quote]

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Era Might' date='13 February 2010 - 10:01 PM' timestamp='1266116501' post='2056827']
We were discussing the problems that Haiti faces [i]as a nation[/i]. We were not discussing the problems faced by private individuals. Killing someone does not solve the social problem of violence anymore than housing a homeless person solves the social problem of homelessness. Sure, we could put a gun in the hands of every Haitian to make them "feel" safe. But that it isn't going to solve the underlying socioeconomic problems in their country. It's like killing your son if you find him using drugs. Is killing him really going to solve anything in your family? It will stop his drug use, but your family will only be the worse for killing him.

The United States has more military might than any nation in history. Yet the United States military is powerless to solve the problems of drugs, terrorism, prostitution, and any host of problems. If you were to put a gun in the hands of every American, I guarantee you that you still would not solve those problems.

If your goal is to push problems out of sight and out of mind, then violence will work. If your goal is to actually solve the underlying problems in society, then violence is powerless.
[/quote]
Violence precedes society. It is a human condition, not a societal condition.

No, violence will not remove the human tendency to violence. I agree that simply killing the current thugs would result, most probably, in new thugs. My comments are a bit simplified, but they're meant to illustrate that the song is crappy not just in form, but in idea. It's the same stupidity as Lennon's "give peace a chance". It doesn't work. Being a martyr is admirable, deciding to not use force can be admirable, but that's not what these goobers are talking about. They're in this idiotic la-la land that the warlords of the world would be powerless if people just stopped fighting. People [i]don't [/i]stop fighting and warlords excel at compelling people to fight. Supplies and donations will help a little, but the fact is that without good men with guns, the bad men with guns will just take it. Haiti's problem is not an earthquake. It's the tyranny of evil men.

[Winchester]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='14 February 2010 - 01:05 AM' timestamp='1266127504' post='2056947']
Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.
[/quote]
Those who live by the sword die by those who live by the gun.

Proof-texting does not negate the reality that the Church accepts violence as morally licit to defend life. It does not negate the fact that innocents die when no one defends them from thugs.

[Selah]

Well, croutons. Looks like I should have searched before I made my own rant topic lol.

I love the original (go ahead, mock ) And the rapping, the change in the lyrics, and the...AAAAH! Is that Lil Wayne doing Bob Dylan's part? *shudders*

At least they had the sense not to touch MJ's parts. Good to see Santana, Orianthi, and a few others. Other than that...blech.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Winchester' date='14 February 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1266173602' post='2057106']
Those who live by the sword die by those who live by the gun.

Proof-texting does not negate the reality that the Church accepts violence as morally licit to defend life. It does not negate the fact that innocents die when no one defends them from thugs.
[/quote]

Ok then.

Apparently the Church is the end all here.

I will go back to my scrambling. Unless someone is in danger of another person around me then I will stop them. If people are in danger far off and we just send off armies to "defend" them, I will not advocate that.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Winchester' date='14 February 2010 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1266173394' post='2057101']
Violence precedes society. It is a human condition, not a societal condition.[/quote]
Violence is humanity's way of saying, "We have no solutions, so we're just going to kill each other." Maybe that's sometimes necessary. But even if it's necessary, that doesn't mean it solves anything. When society starts believing that something like violence solves anything, then society begins to institutionalize it (e.g., with a massive military), and we become accustomed to the false assumptions that these institutions are built on. This leads a nation like the United States to bomb people and tell them that it's for their own good that their nation is being bombed, or it leads us to occupy other nations with our military (e.g., US interventionism in Latin America).

[quote name='Winchester' date='14 February 2010 - 01:49 PM' timestamp='1266173394' post='2057101']No, violence will not remove the human tendency to violence. I agree that simply killing the current thugs would result, most probably, in new thugs. My comments are a bit simplified, but they're meant to illustrate that the song is crappy not just in form, but in idea. It's the same stupidity as Lennon's "give peace a chance". It doesn't work. Being a martyr is admirable, deciding to not use force can be admirable, but that's not what these goobers are talking about. They're in this idiotic la-la land that the warlords of the world would be powerless if people just stopped fighting. People [i]don't [/i]stop fighting and warlords excel at compelling people to fight. Supplies and donations will help a little, but the fact is that without good men with guns, the bad men with guns will just take it. Haiti's problem is not an earthquake. It's the tyranny of evil men.
[/quote]
Oh, I agree with you that the "give peace a chance" platitude is meaningless. I didn't mean to suggest that I was trying to defend such platitudes. And I think that you hit the nail on the head when you say that non-violence only works if you're willing to be a martyr. Gandhi is a good example of authentic non-violence, because Gandhi understood that what he was doing was not some political platitude. He understood that what he was doing was a moral matter; he knew that what he was doing was useless unless it was rooted in his attempt to live a life of truth and moral goodness.

Even when you are committed to non-violence, you can't just "give peace a chance." Peace doesn't just "happen." It requires all kinds of personal changes, such as strengthening our family life, living lives of voluntary simplicity, reaching out to sinners, welcoming the strangers at our doors, etc.

[Hilde]

beaver dam hippie song