The Be-All End-All Muslim Thread

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='22 February 2010 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1266888089' post='2061507']
So Catholicism = not evil. Everything else = evil.
[/quote]
Correct.

I'm also confused as to how you think Islam is a true religion.


And as to why Dominican Soul finds oppression, abuse, and/or violence acceptable.

[KeenanParkerII]

[quote]So Catholicism = not evil. Everything else = evil.[/quote]

Word.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='23 February 2010 - 12:26 PM' timestamp='1266888364' post='2061513']
And as to why Dominican Soul finds oppression, abuse, and/or violence acceptable.
[/quote]

Typo maybe??

And
You love sucking me in to get negative points, but oh well such is life. The third point is easy of course, but I really don't see why it belongs with the subject of the other two. Abuse is rife everywhere and unfortunately is well known in the Catholic Church, due mainly to her enemies and media exploitation. No religion can lay claim to not having or do use violence and sexual abuse on a grand scale. With regard to the other two 1/ I don't consider it my station to pass judgement on my fellow man or woman. And correct me if I'm wrong but we are not supposed to be doing that anyway. 2/I really don't know! I would prefer to leave that to people of higher education than me. Maybe you should have had some options to cover these points. An 'I don't know' and an 'I'm not permitted to make such judgements' the latter being due to the commandment "Love your neighbour as your self" Is making hurtful and [u]unnecessary[/u] comments loving your neighbour? I don't know maybe it is. I say unnecessary, because this subject has appeared numerous times on these forums and what does it achieve apart from inflicting pain onto Muslims who may dare venture here? And I must confess as a result, I feel pain also because they are my neighbours and I love them. So every time someone writes a negative post about Islam they not only hurt Muslims but also Catholics, well one at least and hopefully I have some friends left! Even if I thought they were following a false religion, I would not speak it or especially write it. It would be the same as telling a plain looking person "You're ugly" If telling a person that they follow a false religion and a false prophet is going to end in them finding eternal life, then I would say go for it, but from what I have seen there are many atheists who are that way because they see so much hypocrisy in the behaviour of 'religious people'.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='22 February 2010 - 08:26 PM' timestamp='1266888364' post='2061513']
Correct.

I'm also confused as to how you think Islam is a true religion.


And as to why Dominican Soul finds oppression, abuse, and/or violence acceptable.
[/quote]
...yikes....i voted wrong! that's what happens when one hasn't slept in 36 hours and had a loooooong day at work! LOL!

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='22 February 2010 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1266888991' post='2061525']
You love sucking me in to get negative points, but oh well such is life. The third point is easy of course, but I really don't see why it belongs with the subject of the other two. Abuse is rife everywhere and unfortunately is well known in the Catholic Church, due mainly to her enemies and media exploitation. No religion can lay claim to not having or do use violence and sexual abuse on a grand scale. With regard to the other two 1/ I don't consider it my station to pass judgement on my fellow man or woman. And correct me if I'm wrong but we are not supposed to be doing that anyway. 2/I really don't know! I would prefer to leave that to people of higher education than me. Maybe you should have had some options to cover these points. An 'I don't know' and an 'I'm not permitted to make such judgements' the latter being due to the commandment "Love your neighbour as your self" Is making hurtful and [u]unnecessary[/u] comments loving your neighbour? I don't know maybe it is. I say unnecessary, because this subject has appeared numerous times on these forums and what does it achieve apart from inflicting pain onto Muslims who may dare venture here? And I must confess as a result, I feel pain also because they are my neighbours and I love them. So every time you write a negative post you not only hurt Muslims but also Catholics, well one at least and hopefully I have some friends left! Even if I thought they were following a false religion, I would not speak it. It would be the same as telling a plain looking person "You're ugly" If telling a person that they follow a false religion and a false prophet is going to end in them finding eternal life, then I would say go for it, but from what I have seen there are many atheists who are that way because they see so much hypocrisy in the behaviour of 'religious people'.
[/quote]
Hi Mark, long time, no see.

The third is not necessarily tied to Islam alone; many times in these recurring Islam threads, it seems as though some feel the need to convince others that forms of cruelty are wrong (whether from Islamists, Christians, or otherwise). I simply included that so that we could skip that part of the discussion from now on.

As far as evangelism goes, I agree, it would not be a good thing to go up to a Muslim and say "Your religion is false, and your prophet is too." However, one must remember context. Just as you might talk to your friends differently from your boss or a judge who you're trying to convince that you don't deserve a speeding ticket, one might naturally speak differently when speaking "internally" to those of similar persuasion than to someone who he is trying to convince of a viewpoint. If you went to a Muslim and said that, they would likely ignore you; you'd want to be more gentle and probably tactful. That doesn't change what we believe though, and here, in a place where few Muslims ever venture, it is probably alright to speak frankly.

Do you think your Muslim friends think Jesus is the Son of God? That Catholicism is a True religion? That it, and it alone, is the Truth and the Church of God? No. And they probably don't come to your face and say that, but that's alright. We're allowed to have different beliefs...God allowed it when He gave us free will. Even still, there is an objective right and an objective wrong. To act otherwise is to deny the truth.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='22 February 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1266889527' post='2061537']
...yikes....i voted wrong! that's what happens when one hasn't slept in 36 hours and had a loooooong day at work! LOL!
[/quote]
I was hoping it was a mistake. You can delete your vote and try again, at the bottom of the poll.

[dominicansoul]

...fixed it!

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 February 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1266889527' post='2061537']
...yikes....i voted wrong! that's what happens when one hasn't slept in 36 hours and had a loooooong day at work! LOL!
[/quote]

Sweet dreams!

[Hassan]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' date='22 February 2010 - 08:21 PM' timestamp='1266888089' post='2061507']
So Catholicism = not evil. Everything else = evil.
[/quote]


Yes, kind of like the party in Stalinism.



The current Pope gave a somewhat different, less mindlessly dichotomous response when he was asked this a while ago.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Hassan' date='22 February 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1266890469' post='2061560']
The current Pope gave a somewhat different, less mindlessly dichotomous response when he was asked this a while ago.
[/quote]
Simplifications are always radical. I'm sure the Pope would indeed offer a better explanation than any of us here could.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='22 February 2010 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1266883115' post='2061451']
Rabbinic Judaism would be evil because it is false. Rabbinic Judaism is a rebellious sister religion, not the parent religion of Judaism.
[/quote]
I agree. Rabbinic Judaism is not the same as Biblical Judaism. Christianity is the continuation and fulfillment of Biblical Judaism.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='22 February 2010 - 01:03 AM' timestamp='1266818592' post='2061019']
False, yes. Evil, not in my opinion. In need of the redeeming grace only found in Christ and His Church? You bet. The end.
[/quote]
Islam is not only in need of the redeeming grace only found in Christ and His Church, but was founded on the rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior and of His Church, and can thus rightly be regarded as evil. Islam explicitly denies the divinity of Christ, as well as His passion, death, resurrection, and role as Savior. Also, the Islamic empire was spread by fighting, subduing, and oppressing mostly Christians.

Some of the politically correct Catholics on here have gone so far as make the nonsensical claim that Islam is a "preparation for the Gospel," but how can a post-Christian religion which outright denies the Gospels and was spread by fighting to submission those who believe in the Gospel be a preparation for the Gospel??

I have yet to see an explanation from the Catholics who defend Islam on here.

[Socrates]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='22 February 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1266890579' post='2061562']
Simplifications are always radical. I'm sure the Pope would indeed offer a better explanation than any of us here could.
[/quote]
All falsehood is objectively evil insofar as it is false.
The moral culpability of those who adhere to false beliefs is a different question.

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Socrates' date='22 February 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1266894178' post='2061591']
Islam is not only in need of the redeeming grace only found in Christ and His Church, but was founded on the rejection of Christ as Lord and Savior and of His Church, and can thus rightly be regarded as evil. Islam explicitly denies the divinity of Christ, as well as His passion, death, resurrection, and role as Savior. Also, the Islamic empire was spread by fighting, subduing, and oppressing mostly Christians.

Some of the politically correct Catholics on here have gone so far as make the nonsensical claim that Islam is a "preparation for the Gospel," but how can a post-Christian religion which outright denies the Gospels and was spread by fighting to submission those who believe in the Gospel be a preparation for the Gospel??

I have yet to see an explanation from the Catholics who defend Islam on here.
[/quote]

I am not defending Islam; in all honesty I know next to nothing about it. As a general rule, I tend to struggle with the label of 'evil' and on what things I'll impose it. Perhaps I lack the necessary testicular fortitude, but that is where I'm at right now, I'm afraid. Permit a sister to struggle now and then, aye?

[Socrates]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='22 February 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1266897883' post='2061622']
I am not defending Islam; in all honesty I know next to nothing about it. As a general rule, I tend to struggle with the label of 'evil' and on what things I'll impose it. Perhaps I lack the necessary testicular fortitude, but that is where I'm at right now, I'm afraid. Permit a sister to struggle now and then, aye?
[/quote]
The "defending Islam" remark was not directed at you. I kind of used your post as a springboard to address some general issues, sorry if I was unclear.

[Mark of the Cross]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='23 February 2010 - 12:45 PM' timestamp='1266889553' post='2061538']
Hi Mark, long time, no see.
[/quote]

Have you been somewhere and someone else has been using your avatar? I've been here all along just as annoying as ever.


[quote]The third is not necessarily tied to Islam alone; many times in these recurring Islam threads, it seems as though some feel the need to convince others that forms of cruelty are wrong (whether from Islamists, Christians, or otherwise). I simply included that so that we could skip that part of the discussion from now on.[/quote]

True of course. However if I were a Muslim visitor, I would be offended by a perceived inference that it is explicitly related to the other two.


[quote]As far as evangelism goes, I agree, it would not be a good thing to go up to a Muslim and say "Your religion is false, and your prophet is too." However, one must remember context. Just as you might talk to your friends differently from your boss or a judge who you're trying to convince that you don't deserve a speeding ticket, one might naturally speak differently when speaking "internally" to those of similar persuasion than to someone who he is trying to convince of a viewpoint. If you went to a Muslim and said that, they would likely ignore you; you'd want to be more gentle and probably tactful. That doesn't change what we believe though, and here, in a place where few Muslims ever venture, it is probably alright to speak frankly.[/quote]

This is a public forum and there are Muslim visitors from time to time. Most certainly there would be Catholics with Muslim friends. Posts such as seen here may be doing untold damage to relations. Don't you think that there may be Catholics trying to convince others to follow their creed and when they see such posts they will think 'No thanks that's not the way I see God'. At all times we should be Kind and gentle and never judgemental. We are human and make mistakes, God knows I've made plenty, but we must be seen to at least trying to do the right thing. The Pharisees were very good at rules and regulations all 1000 of them but that's not what Jesus taught and it's not what God wants.


[quote]Do you think your Muslim friends think Jesus is the Son of God? That Catholicism is a True religion? That it, and it alone, is the Truth and the Church of God? No. And they probably don't come to your face and say that, but that's alright. We're allowed to have different beliefs...God allowed it when He gave us free will. Even still, there is an objective right and an objective wrong. To act otherwise is to deny the truth.
[/quote]
Ummm. Well I don't actually have any Muslim friends. From what I have read on the internet and at 'Maniac Muslims' they already claim to love Jesus PBUH. Rule number one 'Love your God with your whole heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind.' Muslims (good ones) love Jesus therefore they are obeying the first law even if they don't know it and they love Allah. That puts them well on the way don't you think? And I've never had one tell me that my religion is false they appear to be very reverent just not convinced about who Jesus really is and a bit confused about the Trinity, but then apparently so are we since we cannot explain it.
Many of my friends are not religious. I wouldn't dare tell them that they don't believe the truth and will go to hell. Actually some months ago I had a nervous breakdown (that's why I wasn't writing very well at the time, anyhow that's my excuse.) and my friends were very Christ like in their treatment of me. I'm sure Jesus lives in them, if not in their minds. The way I lead them to a greater knowledge is letting them see Jesus in me, in my actions, in my love for those less fortunate. Only rarely do I dare to use words, it usually results with a look of "Don't". I make it well known that I am a devout follower of Jesus and I obey the Catholic teachings so I don't think I am seen as denying the truth. Just trying to reveal it in the way I think Jesus wants me to do it. And I can do that by being guided by the Holy Spirit.

Edited February 23, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissyP89' date='22 February 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1266897883' post='2061622']
I am not defending Islam; in all honesty I know next to nothing about it. As a general rule, I tend to struggle with the label of 'evil' and on what things I'll impose it. [b]Perhaps I lack the necessary testicular fortitude[/b], but that is where I'm at right now, I'm afraid. Permit a sister to struggle now and then, aye?
[/quote]
You're the best!

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='22 February 2010 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1266900489' post='2061648']
This is a public forum and there are Muslim visitors from time to time. Most certainly there would be Catholics with Muslim friends. Posts such as seen here may be doing untold damage to relations. Don't you think that there may be Catholics trying to convince others to follow their creed and when they see such posts they will think 'No thanks that's not the way I see God'. At all times we should be Kind and gentle and never judgemental. We are human and make mistakes, God knows I've made plenty, but we must be seen to at least trying to do the right thing. The Pharisees were very good at rules and regulations all 1000 of them but that's not what Jesus taught and it's not what God wants.
[/quote]

this is a great point, except, what you have read and seen on many posts that expressively denounce Islam as a false religion, is the TRUTH. And sometimes the TRUTH hurts people who are not in fulfillment with that TRUTH.

Jesus came into this world, knowing that He would not be bringing Peace, but that the world would war against Him, His Teachings, His TRUTH...

...if you read the New Testament, especially ACTS and many letters of St. Paul, the early Church was not shy in being vocal about the error of the Jews who rejected Jesus, the error of pagans...and they spread the Gospel with such zeal, that it costs them their lives...

it's one thing to be nice to others and respectful of where they are at, but to mince or water down TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" is not the answer...

Edited February 23, 2010 by dominicansoul

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 February 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1266933210' post='2061792']
it's one thing to be nice to others and respectful of where they are at, but to mince or water down TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" is not the answer...
[/quote]

interesting dichotomy you propose...

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='23 February 2010 - 06:53 AM' timestamp='1266933210' post='2061792']
it's one thing to be nice to others and respectful of where they are at, but to mince or water down TRUTH to prevent a break in "relations" is not the answer...
[/quote]
I agree. A Catholic must never say or do anything that might mislead a Muslim by making him think that the Church no longer holds as a matter of divine faith that Christ is the sole savior of the world.