I Feel Defeated

[homeschoolmom]

Homeschoolers cannot (and imho, should not) be the sole influence/educators of their children with regard to faith. It needs to be lived outside the bubble of the home.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='15 March 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1268703517' post='2073762']
I do too, but I would like to see a reform of the existing parochial school system in the United States so that it once again operates as it should by assisting parents who cannot homeschool their children. This is not an either / or situation, but a both / and situation. The Church should have programs faithful to Catholic doctrine that can be utilized by families as a support to what parents are supposed to be doing in the home as the primary educators of their own children.
[/quote]


[quote name='dominicansoul' date='15 March 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1268704621' post='2073774']
oh, and I just want to make clear which Sisters of Mary i'm talking about, the Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist...
[/quote]
The ones that were on Oprah, right?

[quote name='cappie' date='15 March 2010 - 11:41 PM' timestamp='1268710914' post='2073811']
In nearly every document of the Church that addresses education, the primacy of parents is emphasized as a foundational concept. However "primary" does not mean "only" educators. Certainly it is true that to recognize "parents as primary educators" does not prove that parents the "only educators." Those who claim that it does are simply in error. "Primary" here is a sequential and qualitative term, not a quantitative term. In other words, the parents of a child are the first educators to whom the child is exposed, and the most important educators. They are "primary" because it is they who must decide, prayerfully and reasonably, the proper means of education for their child under Canon 793 §1.

The Code of Canon Law directs pastors “… to take special care for the Catholic education of children and young adults;”. [can 528, 1] The way the parish community responds to the Gospel, in worship, education, and service will impact all members of the parish – especially the children. Parish communities should make certain that families know that they are welcome members of the parish and are welcome with their children at liturgy. Parishes should provide opportunities for children to participate, in special but appropriate ways, in liturgy and in parish service opportunities.
[/quote]

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='15 March 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1268681155' post='2073579']
May I recommend again the [url="http://www.eccehomopress.com/"]Little Flowers and Blue Knights[/url] programs that I linked to in the Girl Scouts thread. It is a very good program, designed for young girls and boys. Several years ago, when we joined our parish, I noticed that we did not have any type of program like this and I found a like-minded friend to start one with. We had the blessing of our pastor and he allowed us to meet in the parish. It's very simple and inexpensive. All you would need is two or three more girls and their mothers.
[/quote]

Just wanted to say "Thank you!" for that link, homeschoolmom. Checked it out and think it would be a fantastic program to start at my parish! I will definitely be suggesting this to my parish council members. Awesomeness.

[kamiller42]

This poor thread has been jacked into different directions.

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='15 March 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1268702099' post='2073752']
Ha
[b]h[/b]ome-school your own children. Isn’t that what [b]i[/b] have been advocating [b]allalong[/b]? But then that kind of goes [b]againsteverything[/b] you have been saying. That [b]isa[/b] tad bit hypocritical[b],[/b] son
[/quote]

As long as you are educating your children on proper grammar and spelling as well as the faith, home schooling is excellent.


Many parents are not educated enough themselves to home school. Many parents also cannot home school due to economic circumstances. Many parents are not educated in the faith enough to provide the same quality of Catholic education as what could be offered in a parish or parochial school. Those same parents may do an excellent job of teaching prayer etc, but when it comes to doctrine and morality they may be ignorant through little or no fault of their own. Home schooling is not an option that all parents can take, nor should it be required.


Overall what I'm trying to say is what Cappie already said. The parents being the primary instructor of their children should actually be the reason why they are seeking out good Catholic education programs (parish, parochial, home school etc) to enroll their children in. They instruct their children as best they can, and they continue the education of their children through outside programs.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Slappo

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='16 March 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1268748072' post='2073938']
Just wanted to say "Thank you!" for that link, homeschoolmom. Checked it out and think it would be a fantastic program to start at my parish! I will definitely be suggesting this to my parish council members. Awesomeness.
[/quote]
Oh! You're welcome! I'm so glad that was helpful. Let me know how it goes, and feel free to pm me if you have any questions.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[i]Ask not what the Church can do for you, but what you can do for the Church.[/i]

I laugh because of how corny that sounds. Just had to share.

[add]

[quote name='Slappo' date='16 March 2010 - 03:13 PM' timestamp='1268763220' post='2074043']
As long as you are educating your children on proper grammar and spelling as well as the faith, home schooling is excellent.


[size="3"][color="#ff0000"]Many parents are not educated enough themselves to home school.[/color][/size] Many parents also cannot home school due to economic circumstances. [size="3"][color="#ff0000"]Many parents are not educated in the faith enough to provide the same quality of Catholic education as what could be offered in a parish or parochial school. [/color][/size]Those same parents may do an excellent job of teaching prayer etc, but when it comes to doctrine and morality they may be ignorant through little or no fault of their own. Home schooling is not an option that all parents can take, nor should it be required.


Overall what I'm trying to say is what Cappie already said. The parents being the primary instructor of their children should actually be the reason why they are seeking out good Catholic education programs (parish, parochial, home school etc) to enroll their children in. They instruct their children as best they can, and they continue the education of their children through outside programs.
[/quote]

wow

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 02:03 PM' timestamp='1268766212' post='2074073']
wow
[/quote]
Like I alluded to before, do you think Nancy Pelosi does a good job instructing her children in the Faith? Joe Biden?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 March 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1268766940' post='2074075']
Like I alluded to before, do you think Nancy Pelosi does a good job instructing her children in the Faith? Joe Biden?
[/quote]
Nancy Pelosi is not a Catholic, so how can she instruct her children in a faith that she does not live. The same goes for Biden.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='16 March 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1268767072' post='2074078']
Nancy Pelosi is not a Catholic, so how can she instruct her children in a faith that she does not live. The same goes for Biden.
[/quote]
We're on the same page here.

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 March 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1268766940' post='2074075']
Like I alluded to before, do you think Nancy Pelosi does a good job instructing her children in the Faith? Joe Biden?
[/quote]

no , not by example. obviously
but i don't believe that Many [color="#000000"]Catholic[/color] parents are not educated enough themselves to home school [color="#000000"]or [/color]Many [color="#000000"]Catholic [/color]parents are not educated in the faith enough to provide the same quality of Catholic education as what could be offered in a parish or parochial school.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1268767604' post='2074082']
no , not by example. obviously
but i don't believe that Many [color="#000000"]Catholic[/color] parents are not educated enough themselves to home school [color="#000000"]or [/color]Many [color="#000000"]Catholic [/color]parents are not educated in the faith enough to provide the same quality of Catholic education as what could be offered in a parish or parochial school.
[/quote]
Some Catholic parents are able, and some are not. Regardless, as Fr. Cappie pointed out, the primacy of parents in the education of their children is not - according to the Church - to be taken in an exclusivist sense.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 02:26 PM' timestamp='1268767604' post='2074082']
no , not by example. obviously
but i don't believe that Many [color="#000000"]Catholic[/color] parents are not educated enough themselves to home school [color="#000000"]or [/color]Many [color="#000000"]Catholic [/color]parents are not educated in the faith enough to provide the same quality of Catholic education as what could be offered in a parish or parochial school.
[/quote]
Let's throw out the word educated. It's obfuscating the issue.

The question is whether or not *all* nominally Catholic parents do a good job providing Catholic education to their children. The answer is emphatically no. Some do a great job. That's awesome, that's how it should be. Some, whether because they are ignorant through their own fault or not, do not have adequate resources to give their children a proper Catholic education. Some people have learning disabilities for instance, or just lower IQs, and while they are probably great people, they are simply unable to be proper educators. Some people are openly heterodox, either by choice or through neglect of their own catechesis. It's just plain wrong to say that all parents must be the sole educators of their children in the Catholic faith.

[TradMom]

+Praised be Jesus Christ!

Yes, I understand your frustrations, OP, and I agree with you about the wonderful Protestant programs that are filled to the brim. This fact initially motivated my husband and me to take more responsibility for our children's Catholic education. You have received many comments and suggestions, but I will tell you that as a family (and as a mother) we do not "believe in" the idea of removing children from Mass. Nor do we go for "kid-friendly" Masses. We have strived - very hard - to create a sense of sacred time outside of their normal, every day experiences, and I believe that the very rhythm of the Mass is absorbed through supernatural grace; whether they can comprehend it or not. As for education, that is another matter and in our case, not only do we homeschool religious education, I am also very involved with the parish. I looked and looked and finally found a very orthodox, beautiful parish and I spoke directly with the Pastor who shares our commitment to tradition and reverence. I spend a lot of time at the parish, and while I don't always agree with our diocese (Los Angeles), I am respectful (obviously!) to the wishes of our Cardinal. I don't make any of my personal frustrations public because I believe that would do more harm than good considering the fact that I volunteer in education. I believe the more parents can be involved with their childrens' spiritual formation - first by their very lives - the better chances the children have.

Finally, many of the wonderful "monastic" customs are perfectly adaptable to family life! Some examples are:
Friday nights, we listen to a reading while we eat! (no talking - yikes!)
We pick patron Saints at the beginning of the year, as well as at the beginning of a new or unusual endeavor - a trip, a new program, at each of my pregnancies, etc.
We have a "prayer board."
We say the Rosary together. Nightly.
We have a home altar that we change monthly, and we take turns decorating it.
The "older" kids and I practice "Lectio Divina"
We celebrate (and I do mean celebrate!) Feast Days!
We write regularly to various monastic communities, asking for prayers, offering prayers, sending a small donation with the letters.
We give each other "spiritual bouquets" for special occasions.

I have many more examples (you can PM me if you want more ideas) but these things just naturally flow into family life and help create a better sense of a Catholic identity (while at the same educating!) for our entire family.

Pax,
TradMom

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 March 2010 - 04:32 PM' timestamp='1268767925' post='2074086']
Let's throw out the word educated. It's obfuscating the issue.

The question is whether or not *all* nominally Catholic parents do a good job providing Catholic education to their children. The answer is emphatically no. Some do a great job. That's awesome, that's how it should be. Some, whether because they are ignorant through their own fault or not, do not have adequate resources to give their children a proper Catholic education. Some people have learning disabilities for instance, or just lower IQs, and while they are probably great people, they are simply unable to be proper educators. Some people are openly heterodox, either by choice or through neglect of their own catechesis. It's just plain wrong to say that all parents must be the sole educators of their children in the Catholic faith.
[/quote]

you misunderstand my point, i stated that my children are my soul responsibility to educate. as a a catholic family, in the church, by example and practice. Of course, we could not do it alone, we had lets of help from the priest and laypeople at our parish.

On a side note, i attended catholic school as a youngster, the school at that time was run by Sisters, brothers and and ordained priest. not once did i every hear or was it suggested the the parents of my classmates were not educated enough or not educated in the faith.
i get the impression from other posters that this would or should be done. i have a very high opinion of my fellow parishioners and the idea that if i were to leave them (my children) alone, unattended at some church function where my parental values and/or ability is going to be diminished, is disturbing
as a practicing Catholic, my children, along with my wife and me, would and did participate in the weekly mass and the sacraments.


as for homeschool, i never went to college nor did my wife, that did not invalidate our ability to provide a good catholic education. my mother suggested or insisted we use a Catholic homeschool curriculum. i listened, all three of my children went on to college and graduated with honors. two of them from Franciscan University.

just saying

Edited March 16, 2010 by apparently

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 03:14 PM' timestamp='1268770483' post='2074113']
you misunderstand my point, i stated that my children are my soul responsibility to educate. as a a catholic family, in the church, by example and practice. Of course, we could not do it alone, we had lets of help from the priest and laypeople at our parish.

On a side note, i attended catholic school as a youngster, the school at that time was run by Sisters, brothers and and ordained priest. not once did i every hear or was it suggested the the parents of my classmates were not educated enough or not educated in the faith.
i get the impression from other posters that this would or should be done. i have a very high opinion of my fellow parishioners and the idea that if i were to leave them (my children) alone, unattended at some church function where my parental values and/or ability is going to be diminished, is disturbing
as a practicing Catholic, my children, along with my wife and me, would and did participate in the weekly mass and the sacraments.


as for homeschool, i never went to college nor did my wife, that did not invalidate our ability to provide a good catholic education. my mother suggested or insisted we use a Catholic homeschool curriculum. i listened, all three of my children went on to college and graduated with honors. two of them from Franciscan University.

just saying
[/quote]
I get the impression that you've set up a false dichotomy. Nobody is saying that parents need not be involved. All parents have a massive responsibility to their children. The thing is that they're not alone, nor should they be. Their parish community should have a role. So should the school, if it's feasible, as well as godparents, confirmation sponsors, neighbours..... That's not diminishing the parental role. It's giving your children everything you possibly can. Whatever is in your ability to provide. Sometimes circumstances preclude one or more of those avenues I mentioned above- sometimes partially, sometimes completely. For instance, my godparents live six hours away from me and I see them maybe once a year, if that.
Letting these other sources of education help and support the parental role *does not* diminish it. In fact I'd suggest that part of the parental role is to make those sources available.

[add]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='16 March 2010 - 05:20 PM' timestamp='1268770842' post='2074116']
I get the impression that you've set up a false dichotomy. Nobody is saying that parents need not be involved. All parents have a massive responsibility to their children. The thing is that they're not alone, nor should they be. Their parish community should have a role. So should the school, if it's feasible, as well as godparents, confirmation sponsors, neighbours..... That's not diminishing the parental role. It's giving your children everything you possibly can. Whatever is in your ability to provide. Sometimes circumstances preclude one or more of those avenues I mentioned above- sometimes partially, sometimes completely. For instance, my godparents live six hours away from me and I see them maybe once a year, if that.
Letting these other sources of education help and support the parental role *does not* diminish it. In fact I'd suggest that part of the parental role is to make those sources available.
[/quote]

my bad

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 03:45 PM' timestamp='1268772303' post='2074123']
my bad
[/quote]
That's an unexpected conclusion.

[Slappo]

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1268770483' post='2074113']
you misunderstand my point, i stated that [b]my children are my [s]soul[/s]sole responsibility to educate[/b]. as a a catholic family, in the church, by example and practice. Of course, we could not do it alone, we had lets of help from the priest and laypeople at our parish.
[/quote]

The bolded is not true. It's that simple.

If you were the only person responsible there would be no need for confirmation classes, first communion classes, marriage prep, or any instruction whatsoever aside from what is given in the home.

[quote name='apparently' date='16 March 2010 - 01:14 PM' timestamp='1268770483' post='2074113']
On a side note, i attended catholic school as a youngster, the school at that time was run by Sisters, brothers and and ordained priest. not once did i every hear or was it suggested the the parents of my classmates were not educated enough or not educated in the faith.
i get the impression from other posters that this would or should be done. i have a very high opinion of my fellow parishioners and the idea that if i were to leave them (my children) alone, unattended at some church function where my parental values and/or ability is going to be diminished, is disturbing
as a practicing Catholic, my children, along with my wife and me, would and did participate in the weekly mass and the sacraments.



as for homeschool, i never went to college nor did my wife, that did not invalidate our ability to provide a good catholic education. my mother suggested or insisted we use a Catholic homeschool curriculum. i listened, all three of my children went on to college and graduated with honors. two of them from Franciscan University.

just saying
[/quote]

That is great that you and your wife were able to provide a good Catholic education. One example of parents who did not go to college that were able to home school does not set the rule of thumb that all parents have the intellectual ability to provide a proper education. It would be horrible logic to assume such is true.


Edit: I graduated from Franciscan with honors and I had a high school freshmen level education going in. I dropped out my sophomore year and got my GED. My parents didn't educate me. A lot of it depends on the intellectual capacity of the children as well. Just FYI.

Edited March 16, 2010 by Slappo

[praxedes]

Prayers.

Pax,
Praxedes