What Happens When Nuns/sisters Leave The Order?

[vee]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='29 March 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1269831768' post='2082368']
Laughing... she is one of my favorite siants but I never really thought about being woken up so much especially with the little sleep you get in Carmel! I think i thank God for my deafness... I would have slept like a baby!
[/quote]

Deafness schmefness you would have been right there helping her. [size="1"]Considering your age you probably were too![/size]

[vee]

[quote name='HisChild' date='29 March 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1269835361' post='2082404']
I fell in love with St Maria Maddelena de Pazzi many years ago. In fact, I entered DCJ in 93 on her feast day because in all the saints books I'd read, she seemed so incredibly holy and wonderful. Then I read her book from the Classics of Western Christianity. As I read in further detail about some of her ecstasies and the things she said to her sisters, I kept thinking, 'Wow, she really is a bit of a nutter, isn't she?' LOL! As soon as I saw her name again, I started laughing. I still love her, don't get me wrong, but she was just something else. Fool for Christ, to be sure. The pragmatic Teresa of Avila probably would have had a field day with her!
[/quote]

I started off thinking she`s nuts and have only been able to add the holy part more recently. I still cant call her wonderful yet though as only Teresa and a couple of other saints have achieved that status in my heart. Do you know how the other nuns reacted to St Maria or treated her because of the phenomena surrounding her?

For those that dont know anything about her there is a 30 min audio program on ewtn that I thought was a nice intro. Among other things it covers her vision of purgatory and why we should pray for those who are there. Pretty sobering stuff.

To listen [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp"]click here[/url] and search for de pazzi in the program box and you will get two search results. The one I suggest is from the Super Saints series.

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='vee8' date='29 March 2010 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1269869570' post='2082568']
I started off thinking she`s nuts and have only been able to add the holy part more recently. I still cant call her wonderful yet though as only Teresa and a couple of other saints have achieved that status in my heart. Do you know how the other nuns reacted to St Maria or treated her because of the phenomena surrounding her?

For those that dont know anything about her there is a 30 min audio program on ewtn that I thought was a nice intro. Among other things it covers her vision of purgatory and why we should pray for those who are there. Pretty sobering stuff.

To listen [url="http://www.ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/intro.asp"]click here[/url] and search for de pazzi in the program box and you will get two search results. The one I suggest is from the Super Saints series.
[/quote]


I think I am pretty much where you are when thinking about St. Magdalene de Pazzi. I found out about her through St. Alphonsus Liguori -- mostly in his [i]True Spouse of Christ[/i] -- and repeatedly thought, "Wow, this nun is NUTS. And SUPER HOLY. "

She is basically one of those saintly "untouchables" to me... kind of like Catherine of Siena and Veronica Giuliani. Sooooo [i]incredibly[/i] holy that I find it difficult to remotely relate to any of them.

There should be a saint of "normalcy". One that committed venial [i]and[/i] mortal sins, yet rose above it to live a life of virtue (with the occasional struggles along the way)... in an attainable way. Someone EVERYONE could relate to, no matter where you are in life. Is that a tall order? Does a saint like that even exist?

Does anyone have any recommendations? Sometimes I need a little saintly inspiration, but find it difficult amongst so many "giants" of the spiritual life.

P.S. -- Sorry... ...I kind of hijacked this thread here.

[Cherie]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='29 March 2010 - 09:54 AM' timestamp='1269870854' post='2082574']


She is basically one of those saintly "untouchables" to me... kind of like Catherine of Siena and Veronica Giuliani. Sooooo [i]incredibly[/i] holy that I find it difficult to remotely relate to any of them.

[/quote]

And Gemma Galgani!

Bd. Bartolo Longo was a satanist priest before he converted. And there was a Carmelite ... I want to say Herman something? ... who was an atheist before he converted and became a Carmelite.

And I always recommend "[url="http://www.sophiainstitute.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=305"]A Bedside Book of Saints[/url]" because it highlights the HUMANITY of some great Saints, and some pretty humorous stories!

[vee]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='29 March 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1269870854' post='2082574']


Does anyone have any recommendations? Sometimes I need a little saintly inspiration, but find it difficult amongst so many "giants" of the spiritual life.

P.S. -- Sorry... ...I kind of hijacked this thread here.
[/quote]


Oh dear God its Monday ... again....

I like the topic you mention so how about a new thread for it. I will be happy to offer my two cents... on Tuesday

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='29 March 2010 - 11:07 AM' timestamp='1269871633' post='2082578']
And Gemma Galgani!

Bd. Bartolo Longo was a satanist priest before he converted. And there was a Carmelite ... I want to say Herman something? ... who was an atheist before he converted and became a Carmelite.

And I always recommend "[url="http://www.sophiainstitute.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=305"]A Bedside Book of Saints[/url]" because it highlights the HUMANITY of some great Saints, and some pretty humorous stories!
[/quote]

Gemma Galgani -- SO TRUE!

And I am totally adding [i]A Bedside Book of Saints[/i] to be "wish list".

[quote name='vee8' date='29 March 2010 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1269871892' post='2082580']
Oh dear God its Monday ... again....

I like the topic you mention so how about a new thread for it. I will be happy to offer my two cents... on Tuesday
[/quote]

Just a little friendly reminder from Salty.

[Saint Therese]

I think its important to remember that 1- religious communities will usually do anything they legitimately can do help a candidate persevere(especially today when there are fewer vocations) 2- if someone leaves a community there is a valid reason and 3- If it were God's will for them to remain in the community, they would remain there.

God bless.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Saint Therese

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='29 March 2010 - 08:54 AM' timestamp='1269870854' post='2082574']

There should be a saint of "normalcy". One that committed venial [i]and[/i] mortal sins, yet rose above it to live a life of virtue (with the occasional struggles along the way)... in an attainable way. Someone EVERYONE could relate to, no matter where you are in life. Is that a tall order? [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/hehehe.gif[/img] Does a saint like that even exist?

[/quote]

Does St. Augustine fit the bill? He led quite a life before his conversion. Wasn't it Saint Augustine who said, "Please Lord, make me holy. But, not just yet." I love that saying. It may not be the holiest thing someone could say, but it's so HONEST.

[Saint Therese]

How about St. Mary the Magdelene?

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='29 March 2010 - 11:11 AM' timestamp='1269875493' post='2082623']
I think its important to remember that 1- religious communities will usually do anything they legitimately can do help a candidate persevere(especially today when there are fewer vocations) 2- if someone leaves a community there is a valid reason and 3- If it were God's will for them to remain in the community, they would remain there.

God bless.
[/quote]
I have questions on #3...

God leaves the choice to us in regards to staying or going...He never forces anyone to live the life, it is not a right, but in fact a privilege...but we can always say no and walk away...

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Antigonos' date='29 March 2010 - 08:52 AM' timestamp='1269867173' post='2082561']
Then you think it was the sexual revolution which caused the disintegration of so many religious communities and so many nuns and priests leaving religious life, rather than Vatican II? Did [i]everyone[/i] misinterpret it? Were its decisions so confusingly written? [I'm quite serious about wanting to know your opinion; I'm not being sarcastic]
[/quote]

Oh! I wish I wasn't in such a rush or I would answer this more thoughtfully. I will try to come back to it.

No, I don't think it was just the sexual revolution. I think my post made clear that I consider that a contributing factor, however.

There were also preconditions... by that I mean, there were people purposely waiting for Vatican II to be completed who intended to purposely misrepresent its teachings in order to pull through an agenda that was in the works before the council was done.

I think it is a culmination of a lot of things, but I certainly do not think that Vatican II is in any way to take the blame for church problems we may be facing now.

Nor do I think that these problems in religious life, which are the topic of this thread, started after Vatican II. In fact, I think it has become clear that if anything, things are changing for the better since Vatican II. We still have a long way to go however in smoothing out some of the bumps.

That is how I see it, anyway.

More later, hopefully.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Totus Tuus

[Nunsense]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='30 March 2010 - 02:11 AM' timestamp='1269875493' post='2082623']
I think its important to remember that 1- religious communities will usually do anything they legitimately can do help a candidate persevere(especially today when there are fewer vocations) 2- if someone leaves a community there is a valid reason and 3- If it were God's will for them to remain in the community, they would remain there.

God bless.
[/quote]


This is a beautiful thought but not true in every case. Sometimes there are personalities involved and superiors are human too. While it would be good if everyone acted in accordance with God's will at all times, sometimes what happens is that God uses whatever happens for His greater glory even if what was done wasn't done according to His will.

He has often turned suffering into something beautiful, but that doesn't mean that He wanted the suffering to happen in the first place. I doubt that all of St Therese's sisters or St Margaret Mary's were acting in accordance with God's will but He was able to use their behavior to sanctify these women.

The reason I take exception to what you wrote is that not everyone who has been asked to leave, wanted to do so or was asked for a 'valid' reason (at least one that was explained to them) and certainly not all of them 'do everything to help a candidate persevere' although this is the ideal and it would be good if they all did this.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='vee8' date='29 March 2010 - 10:07 AM' timestamp='1269868020' post='2082567']
Deafness schmefness you would have been right there helping her. [size="1"]Considering your age you probably were too![/size]
[/quote]

Laughing.... wait until you are the one doing such things!

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='HisChild' date='28 March 2010 - 10:56 PM' timestamp='1269835016' post='2082400']
Sister Marie, thank you for your visible witness of your vocation to Jesus. It's so heartening to see sisters in habits. Among other things, it really does provide to the laity a religious moment - a time out, if you will, in our crazy and sometimes horrid world that our Lord is in our midst during our struggles. The habit, "even" modified, also often provides to a young woman or man a seed, one that may grown into a vocation. So thank you.

So, dear Sister, I just wanted to share that I understand what you speak of... and also to exhort those that reads these posts down the line who are discerning religious life to carefully discern your vocation to ANY community. What's the old saying? Don't judge a book by its cover. A pretty habit does not a holy community make. I just see so many posts here go on about the habits. This one wants to join this community because the habit is so traditional and so pretty and that one wants to join that community because the veil is to the waist or the habit is in the color she likes. And they think that BECAUSE of the habit and the traditional horarium or the grill separating the sisters from the people, makes the community somehow better or more authentic. These habits, these rubrics ARE beautiful, and can be incredible tools to help one along the way to holiness, but don't get seduced by the externals to the point that you do not see the inner heart of the community. Some of us have been there... and then post here today.
[/quote]

Dear HisChild,

Thank you for your kind words. I was a little wary of posting how I felt because I didn't want it to seem too judgmental. I certainly don't think that all sisters treat one another this way which is why I mentioned some communities who have been just lovely to me. It has just been my experience. I have also experienced the anger of sisters at the "childishness" and "immaturity" of wearing the religious habit. I want to say, if this helps me to grow in holiness, and it helps others, what is so wrong?

There is unfortunately a lot of jealousy and competition between communities especially as regards vocations. There are about 10-15 sisters in my community in formation (postulate through temporary profession) which is pretty good considering the circumstances. Sisters from the more liberal communities sometimes tell us that are going for "quality not quantity" as far as new vocations are concerned. The sisters from some of the more popular and orthodox congregations who have a ton of postulants each year look down on our slow but steady trickle of vocations while many of their postulants leave. Again, this is not a judgment on their formation, just an observation through my meetings with different communities.

I think we need to start working together. We need one another. Religious life is like one big puzzle in the Church. Each piece is necessary but must be given the room to be their own unique piece, still part of the large picture of authentic religious life. I teach... I can't be a nurse, a social worker, a writer, a painter, a doctor, and a theologian at the same time (although if there are any teachers on here, you know we do all these jobs as well!)! I need the other pieces to do that. If one piece has figured out a way to make formation better they should share it. If another piece has found a way to make more traditional habits on a budget, maybe they could help those of us who have had to buy modified ones instead of ignoring us.

Anyway, I know this is a little off topic but I think the puzzle image is a good one for formation too. Each sister needs to be able to be her own unique person as God made her but still have one mind and heart with the community. I think some communities are afraid today of letting their younger sisters be themselves and make mistakes because they are afraid of the future for the whole community. There has to be some room to grow without being asked to leave without any warning.

I really am praying for all of you and I thank you for praying for me. I have experienced some unfortunate departures of dear sisters who I still believe have vocations. Some of them felt compelled to leave because of circumstances they could no longer live in. It is a heartbreaking thing for that sister and for the community. If any of you would ever like to talk about some of your experiences through PM I would be available. I offer this to let you know that there is a religious here who does understand your plight and your need to talk it through. I'm on my way to evening prayer right now. Know each of you will be remembered before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament!

Sister Marie

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='29 March 2010 - 12:11 PM' timestamp='1269875493' post='2082623']
I think its important to remember that 1- religious communities will usually do anything they legitimately can do help a candidate persevere(especially today when there are fewer vocations) 2- if someone leaves a community there is a valid reason and 3- If it were God's will for them to remain in the community, they would remain there.

God bless.
[/quote]


[quote name='nunsense' date='29 March 2010 - 05:13 PM' timestamp='1269893600' post='2082797']
This is a beautiful thought but not true in every case. Sometimes there are personalities involved and superiors are human too. While it would be good if everyone acted in accordance with God's will at all times, sometimes what happens is that God uses whatever happens for His greater glory even if what was done wasn't done according to His will.

He has often turned suffering into something beautiful, but that doesn't mean that He wanted the suffering to happen in the first place. I doubt that all of St Therese's sisters or St Margaret Mary's were acting in accordance with God's will but He was able to use their behavior to sanctify these women.

The reason I take exception to what you wrote is that not everyone who has been asked to leave, wanted to do so or was asked for a 'valid' reason (at least one that was explained to them) and certainly not all of them 'do everything to help a candidate persevere' although this is the ideal and it would be good if they all did this.
[/quote]

What nunsense said (as well as dominican soul, I just didn't quote her).

I definitely take issue with #1 -- this is the *ideal*, that is that a community should do everything within its power to help the discerner persevere. In my praying/discerning/disecting of what happened to me recently I am convinced that the community was not mature enough to know how to "do everything within its power", in fact I think it completely missed the mark.

#2 -- what nunsense said; not everyone is asked to leave for a valid reason. And ... not everyone is told either what those reasons were.

#3 -- recently (within the last year) my view on the idea that "if it were God's will for them to remain in community, they would have" has really changed. We humans (those in formation, and the sisters in charge of formation) have free will. If for example, there was an injustice towards someone in formation -- was it God's will? I would say NO -- God would not have willed something inherently sinful. However -- did God allow it? YES ... and as Romans 8:28 says "We know that all things work for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose." He will use all for our sanctification, because at the end of it all what counts is to seek God above all, to walk faithfully in Him regardless of vocation.

Saint Therese -- ideally what you said is true; but in practice I believe that it is not true with many communities.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='Sister Marie' date='29 March 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1269895511' post='2082836']
...
I think we need to start working together. We need one another. Religious life is like one big puzzle in the Church. Each piece is necessary but must be given the room to be their own unique piece, still part of the large picture of authentic religious life. I teach... I can't be a nurse, a social worker, a writer, a painter, a doctor, and a theologian at the same time (although if there are any teachers on here, you know we do all these jobs as well!)! I need the other pieces to do that. If one piece has figured out a way to make formation better they should share it. If another piece has found a way to make more traditional habits on a budget, maybe they could help those of us who have had to buy modified ones instead of ignoring us.

Anyway, I know this is a little off topic but I think the puzzle image is a good one for formation too. Each sister needs to be able to be her own unique person as God made her but still have one mind and heart with the community. I think some communities are afraid today of letting their younger sisters be themselves and make mistakes because they are afraid of the future for the whole community. There has to be some room to grow without being asked to leave without any warning.
[/quote]

Amen Sister -- formation is such a key component to the development of the religious, and you are right ... if the communities start working together instead of competing (since in reality God will call a candidate to X or Y community) it can only serve to strengthen the Body of Christ. I also have to admit that I had been kind of wary of those communities that do not wear a habit ... and what I need to look at is the quality of their formation, the faithfulness of their sisters for I bet that there are communities that do not wear a habit or wear a modified habit that are very faithful to the magesterium of the Church. And yes you're right (you said it in another post) that the habit does not make a sister.

I agree with the puzzle image -- a community has to have one heart and mind, a charism that all is faithful to ... but each sister brings their own uniqueness to the community and that serves to strengthen the community not diminish it.

[quote name='Sister Marie' date='29 March 2010 - 05:45 PM' timestamp='1269895511' post='2082836']
I really am praying for all of you and I thank you for praying for me. I have experienced some unfortunate departures of dear sisters who I still believe have vocations. Some of them felt compelled to leave because of circumstances they could no longer live in. It is a heartbreaking thing for that sister and for the community. If any of you would ever like to talk about some of your experiences through PM I would be available. I offer this to let you know that there is a religious here who does understand your plight and your need to talk it through. I'm on my way to evening prayer right now. Know each of you will be remembered before Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament!

Sister Marie
[/quote]

Thank you for your prayers ... they will be most helpful, and for the offer to communicate via PM. From experience I know that sometimes there is no outlet for what has happened, and to be able to discuss things in confidence with someone who will not be judgemental is a true blessing.

[dakurgie]

I have found this thread very interesting and enlightening.

I have been discerning with a community for several years now and have student loans to payoff before I can enter.
But a real fear about entering is: If, when, and how I would be asked to leave or if I wanted to leave what would it look like? So everyone's experiences are truly taken to heart.

The question I now pose is: Would it be of value to talk about it upfront in the discernment process? Or, would it look like that you were not really interested?

I believe my fear has disapated but I also know that I personally take separations hard.

Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

[Laudate_Dominum]

i agree with laetitia crucis' posts

[tinytherese]

I really do think that it's the vow of obedience that gets me nervous when I think about it. This isn't to say that I'm a headstrong rebel and it can train us in humility. I just have the image of someone's identity being supressed, especially at a complative convent.

The practice of being silent many times of the day, get me feeling uneasy as well. This isn't to say that silence can't be a good thing at times, but I'd still like to have social interaction and for sisters to get to know each other properly. I remember going on a visit once to a community in the past, and what with all of the quiet and silence that we had to keep at most times apart from recreation, I felt as if they weren't getting a true feel for who I am personality and temperament wise.

Talk of mortification used to not be such a big deal to me as well, but I wonder how far you draw the line on that. I wouldn't want to become puritanical or scupulous. I know that we should definitely not be attached to material things, but I wouldn't want it to look or feel like we were being massochists or hate innocent pleasures, because pleasure is not evil, unlike what lots of people outside of the Church mistakingly think that we believe. I thought that religious communities were called to off whatever they do suffer for the good of others, but not to torture themselves in the process and beat themselves up. I get the image of someone getting hit with something and saying, "Thank you, may I have another."

I just know that these things have been on my mind as far as religious life goes. Part of me is just so nervous about living such a vocation. I am a sensitive young lady who has experienced various forms of abuse, been manipulated, sadistically tortured, and been very hurt by people who I should have been able to trust. Some of my friends have minimized what I've gone though, acting as if I was the selfish one with a wonderful life that I should be grateful that worse didn't happen to me.

I would just really hope that if one dedicates their entire life to the Lord like this with others who do the same, that they would treat each other with love and dignity as every family should. They are not called "sisters" for nothing.

[Macies]

As many of you know, I am in the process of leaving one community for another. Active to contemplative life. It has been difficult for a variety of reasons, but I have found great support in the most unexpected ways. Angels unaware.

Devotedtohim makes a good point which I think went unnoticed. Community IS what you make it/where you find it, and whether it be a marriage, a book group, group therapy, etc., leaving is almost always painful. I would go so far as to say it doesn't matter if you leave on your own or if you are asked to leave; it is a break in relationship and a break is painful.

I really respect the manner in which this subject has been discussed, privately without names or details. I know some of you have most likely changed certain details for privacy sake and I commend your use of discretion.

Great thread!