What Happens When Nuns/sisters Leave The Order?

[gloriana35]

I am not going into great detail (and I am in my 60s, so I cannot say how things are now), but some of what Nunsense mentioned very much resonated with me. Many girls of my generation entered the convent whilst still in their teens, where I was in my 20s, and already had my MA. I originally had intended to enter the community that I knew from university, but they were moving in directions with which I disagreed, and I entered a different congregation. Looking back, I can see (from their overall approach, not only in relation to me) that it should have been obvious to the congregation I did enter that I was not what they were looking for - they were anti-intellectual; even answering a question at a workshop was 'singularisation,' everything was based on doing everything together (and one could not even keep up with teaching duties, since the interruption were 'created', to give one a chance to practise obedience.) When I first met this congregation, it was not with the intention of entering there - but I would see that they often saw anyone they met who wished to pursue religious life as possibly having been led by God to meet them. They encouraged vocations, which few communities did then, but dismissed anyone who they later judged unsuitable.

I live a vowed life to this day (though not in community), and I can see, with hindsight, that I would not have been suited to their way of life, though I loved it in the beginning. However, as Nunsense mentioned, there were many things about me (or others) which might be held against one  - though no-one said anything at the time. For example, the superior had suggested I go for a walk alone, which I was glad to do - but I found out later that, had I been as 'community minded' as they wished, I would have declined, because that meant an hour away from the others. We were allowed to sit anywhere we wished at meals, and to speak, yet (again, without knowing at the time) it was very much against me that I sat regularly with Sisters who were professed.

I had no intention of leaving the community. First, the novice mistress urged me to make confession to a visiting priest, but he spoke no English, and I didn't feel my Italian was good enough... I couldn't understand why she kept pushing me, but realised later that this elderly priest, who was thought of as a saint, already knew they were throwing me out. (I'm summarising.) I shudder to think that this superior would have left me wondering what sin of mine would have caused  a stranger to tell me to leave a convent.  Yet it is possible that, with his already knowing I would have to leave, she may have thought that, if the 'saint' told me to leave, I might have thought it was a divine inspiration of his - or even have been relieved.

One of the schools the Sisters staffed was in a wealthy area, and the superior told me that the parents there wanted a music programme. (No other Sisters were qualified in that subject, and I had BA and MA degrees in music, so it seemed logical.) When I was sent to that other house, the way the other Sisters treated me was deplorable. Their contempt still makes me shudder - and this though it was many years ago. I gather that their goal was to convince me I was terrible, and I had to deal with horrible self-hatred for years after this happened. I received a letter from the superior telling me that she had 'told me repeatedly I was not suited to the life, but that I had refused to listen,' though we had no personal conferences. My spirituality is very focused on the Incarnation, our deification, etc, so the resurrection is very central - yet I could not think of this for years, because I'll never forget the line in the letter which read, "Easter is coming - new dawn, new resurrection! You will be going home, and can rejoice in knowing God's will for you."

Though, afterwards, I did intend to seek entrance to another community, my having been rejected led to Sisters assuming I had bad motives - that my 'useless' music degrees meant I couldn't find work and wanted 'security,' or that I couldn't find a husband, and so forth. I can see, now, that this was a confused time. Sisters had left religious life in droves, and a misinterpretation of the universal call to holiness made many question whether God wanted anyone in convents any longer.  I am thankful that I had somewhere to go - my parents were alive - and the Order did not give me one penny. Yet even my own parents assumed that 'there's something you're not telling us' - it was commonly thought (as I heard from them and others) that, with how communities needed vocations, I must have done something terrible to be dismissed.

The pain was overwhelming, and could not be shared. I heard every cliche in the book - God might want me to have a son who'd be a priest; I could live a hidden life and gain graces; I was going against God's will if I wasn't seeking a husband; I was 'deluded', and must still think I lived in a convent. Everyone was glad I had 'left.' I had expected Religious to have some compassion, but they often were the worst.

I am thankful that I have not seen the community since. Perhaps someone could want to be in touch with those who had judged her unsuitable, but the deceit (I supposedly was transferred to teach music, and then was treated with utter contempt, where any word I uttered was used against me) would prevent my wanting the least contact. 

[gloriana35]

I am not suggesting that what I'm mentioning here is universal! Yet it may be helpful to those who are discerning regarding entering or leaving religious life, or those with whom they deal.

Through the years, I have met others who were forced out of communities, as I was. We were different personalities, from different communities, with varied perspectives - yet, in many cases, those forced out of religious life have an area where we may be highly vulnerable. For all that we know, on an intellectual level, that we have free will - that superiors are not mouthpieces for God - and that, if God personally willed everything that happens on earth, one look at headlines each day would make one agree with Bertrand Russell that it would be the purpose of a fiend - we would have heard 'it wasn't God's will'... 'if God wants you in the convent, no-one in the world can throw you out...'... "it's not what we want, it's what God wants..." There is a danger, all the more insidious because we may see this only with hindsight, that the pain of the rejection (and this hurt that cannot be shared, lest one be torn by even more cliches) can make us wonder if, since God 'didn't want me in he convent,' he has some special mission for us that we could not have fulfilled had we still been there.

I have known a few religious well (both male and female), especially those who are devoted to Therese (and picture that, if her mother had become a Sister, the world would have lost a saint, plus four other daughters totally dedicated to the Church), who lived to regret marrying. They saw, later, that they thought God wanted them to sacrifice their religious vocations, in order for them to have children (perhaps many!) who'd be raised as staunch Catholics. During the 1980s, a good and sincere, but utterly impractical, priest I knew had an idea for a new religious community - and, much as I saw that elements of his ideas would not work well, I thought his inviting me to be a superior was divine providence.

Spiritual direction is a great blessing, but very difficult to find. I worked for the Church for 30 years, and knew many good people, with gifts in varied areas, but true discernment, and the ability to help others see the Truth clearly, is a rare charism. (I mention this because many good people, who do not have this gift, have thought themselves to be suitable directors.) I did not find genuine spiritual direction until 1997! Not to mention that some who are not gifted with discernment can be bound by 'agendas.' For example, in the 1970s , there was such an overwhelming idea that the 'new theology of marriage' (...which I doubt would have surprised any couple in history) and 'universal call to holiness' (hardly a new idea...but it made it seem that religious life was no longer a vocation, only baptism), that those who may have been good candidate for religious life were endlessly told about lay apostolates, lay people living together, 'have you thought about marriage?'.. it seemed communities were doing everything they could to discourage candidates.

I don't know if this still is true, but know it was not unusual, in the past, for someone who was being dismissed to be the last to know. It often was not the case that other Sisters never were told she was leaving - they knew before she did. I'm sorry to say that, in the community where I lived, there were further references to those dismissed - usually raised eyebrows and 'she's sick.' (I have no reason to believe they were.) 

Edited April 3, 2018 by gloriana35
Forgot to add a detail

[kjw]

We are about the same age. 

I repeat ..."rain or shine", it says it all.  

It is the individual not the "committee " who is there to teach.   Thank you, once for every year of your service. 

[Feankie]

"Spiritual direction is a great blessing, but very difficult to find. I worked for the Church for 30 years, and knew many good people, with gifts in varied areas, but true discernment, and the ability to help others see the Truth clearly, is a rare charism. (I mention this because many good people, who do not have this gift, have thought themselves to be suitable directors.) I did not find genuine spiritual direction until 1997! Not to mention that some who are not gifted with discernment can be bound by 'agendas."

Actually, as a SD for about 20 years, I can tell you via personal experience that several people did drop out of my formation program once we got to the semester in which we had to actually do  SD, tape the session (verbatims), and submit it to our personal SD and supervisor for their critique/feedback.  It became readily apparent to some that they loved and expelled in the coursework, but had difficulty interacting with others.  Personally, in all my years of doing SD and interacting with others in this ministry (note I said ministry, not job!), I never met anyone with an "agenda".  

I'm sorry if you had this experience.

[gloriana35]

The time of which I am speaking was one of great confusion in religious communities (though, unlike today, there still were a substantial number of religious Sisters.) It's very difficult to summarise. Workshops, seminars, articles by current or former priests and Sisters, often presented puzzling, very discouraging ideas. One might here that the 'age of the laity' made religious life obsolete - a presenter well might say that, regardless of whether a Sister wished to leave or not, communities would no longer exist within ten years. Apostolic work was criticised - Sisters who served in third world missions were 'part of the problem' for not forcing the governments to take initiatives for healthcare, and converts who became Christian were 'deprived of their culture.' I knew of  a monastery, which happened to be located near a residence where mostly married members of a charismatic group lived - they recommended this to any potential applicant, because what if this was the way the Holy Spirit wanted community life to be now, not vowed life?  (The charismatic community did not exist for long, but there was great enthusiasm for a few years.) Some friars I knew became so involved in encouraging married people to be Secular Franciscans that someone seeking a convent or friary life would be urged to become SFO instead.

Many religious in final vows had left their communities. I often wonder how many became discouraged, because there was a popular idea (which I encountered, many times) that the only vocation is baptism, and that their consecration had no particular value. Other communities seemed to have abandoned the very charism a Sister may have lived and taught for decades. Supposedly, in past thinking, being accepted for final vows meant it was God's will... had God now changed his mind, with the new 'age of the laity'? And too many congregations no longer spoke of their vows -their reason for existence seemed to be defeating the oppression of women. (A woman who did not think herself oppressed was in need of 'education.')

Someone who has the gift to be a spiritual director should not have agendas - but communities, dioceses, conferences, and so forth frequently did. They probably were well-intentioned. Yet I was one of many candidates who received the impression that communities were doing everything they could to discourage candidates. (I heard such discussions amongst certain Sisters, from different communities, who were in vocation work. )

Just this past week, coincidentally, I heard a priest say that most Sisters he has met, who entered between the 1940s-60s, did so because the feared for future security, and didn't have career and educational opportunities. (This was not the case with most Sisters I knew. Though I am working-class, the majority of the Sisters who taught me were not - their mothers, and even grandmothers, often had university degrees, and many had independent family income.) It did grow tiresome, for myself and others attempting application, to have to hear endless details of career opportunities, new lay apostolates, the sacredness of marriage (which we had known of in the first place!). 

I can see how very much communities did not know which directions they should take. I most definitely saw confusion over whether vowed life was obsolete, and everything should be about secular ministries. 

[Nunsuch]

8 hours ago, gloriana35 said:

The time of which I am speaking was one of great confusion in religious communities (though, unlike today, there still were a substantial number of religious Sisters.) It's very difficult to summarise. Workshops, seminars, articles by current or former priests and Sisters, often presented puzzling, very discouraging ideas. One might here that the 'age of the laity' made religious life obsolete - a presenter well might say that, regardless of whether a Sister wished to leave or not, communities would no longer exist within ten years. Apostolic work was criticised - Sisters who served in third world missions were 'part of the problem' for not forcing the governments to take initiatives for healthcare, and converts who became Christian were 'deprived of their culture.' I knew of  a monastery, which happened to be located near a residence where mostly married members of a charismatic group lived - they recommended this to any potential applicant, because what if this was the way the Holy Spirit wanted community life to be now, not vowed life?  (The charismatic community did not exist for long, but there was great enthusiasm for a few years.) Some friars I knew became so involved in encouraging married people to be Secular Franciscans that someone seeking a convent or friary life would be urged to become SFO instead.

Many religious in final vows had left their communities. I often wonder how many became discouraged, because there was a popular idea (which I encountered, many times) that the only vocation is baptism, and that their consecration had no particular value. Other communities seemed to have abandoned the very charism a Sister may have lived and taught for decades. Supposedly, in past thinking, being accepted for final vows meant it was God's will... had God now changed his mind, with the new 'age of the laity'? And too many congregations no longer spoke of their vows -their reason for existence seemed to be defeating the oppression of women. (A woman who did not think herself oppressed was in need of 'education.')

Someone who has the gift to be a spiritual director should not have agendas - but communities, dioceses, conferences, and so forth frequently did. They probably were well-intentioned. Yet I was one of many candidates who received the impression that communities were doing everything they could to discourage candidates. (I heard such discussions amongst certain Sisters, from different communities, who were in vocation work. )

Just this past week, coincidentally, I heard a priest say that most Sisters he has met, who entered between the 1940s-60s, did so because the feared for future security, and didn't have career and educational opportunities. (This was not the case with most Sisters I knew. Though I am working-class, the majority of the Sisters who taught me were not - their mothers, and even grandmothers, often had university degrees, and many had independent family income.) It did grow tiresome, for myself and others attempting application, to have to hear endless details of career opportunities, new lay apostolates, the sacredness of marriage (which we had known of in the first place!). 

I can see how very much communities did not know which directions they should take. I most definitely saw confusion over whether vowed life was obsolete, and everything should be about secular ministries. 

You acknowledge on another thread that you have no experience with religious life. Well, as someone who has studied it extensively, and has served as a consultant to many congregations, I have to say that many of the sweeping generalizations you make here are both erroneous and highly problematic. I suspect they have no basis in actual fact, but only in a few speculative examples. Certainly, none of the research on religious life both in the period immediately before OR after Vatican II would sustain what you say here. So, if you do not have sources for what you write here, I would encourage you not to make such disparaging claims.

[Sponsa-Christi]

30 minutes ago, Nunsuch said:

You acknowledge on another thread that you have no experience with religious life. Well, as someone who has studied it extensively, and has served as a consultant to many congregations, I have to say that many of the sweeping generalizations you make here are both erroneous and highly problematic. I suspect they have no basis in actual fact, but only in a few speculative examples. Certainly, none of the research on religious life both in the period immediately before OR after Vatican II would sustain what you say here. So, if you do not have sources for what you write here, I would encourage you not to make such disparaging claims.

Actually, I'm good friends with several older religious who have shared very similar reflections to those that gloriana35 has shared.  Obviously one poster's experiences aren't universal, but I think gloriana was hitting on some very real and valid points.  

[Egeria]

7 hours ago, Sponsa-Christi said:

Actually, I'm good friends with several older religious who have shared very similar reflections to those that gloriana35 has shared.  Obviously one poster's experiences aren't universal, but I think gloriana was hitting on some very real and valid points.  

Ditto.

One (perhaps extreme) public example of this can be seen in the words of the provincial of the Dutch Dominican friars when he wrote: "people in our province talked of re-founding the order and of Dominican lay people being our heirs, as the branch of the brothers in our own country seemed to be slowly evaporating."

[Nunsuch]

Sorry, but I think that some of the anecdotal evidence here is somewhat equivalent to that of listening to divorced people as authoritative sources on the current state of marriage. Also, to take isolated anecdotes from decades ago and suggest that they may have relevance to the presence is also problematic.

[kjw]

Learned?

"listening to divorced people as authoritative sources on the current state of marriage. Also, to take isolated anecdotes from decades ago and suggest that they may have relevance to the presence is also problematic."

How about replying authoritatively to their wondering children?

Problematic ...

"Brides ..."

Do I ask Mormons to comment at this point -- legalities? 

These were official ceremonies were they not?  Catholic is a word with English root dating only to the 1580s.  

I don't think it would only be classmates of mine that should be concerned with the way you reply. 

If I have misread your meaning I apologize. ... but anecdotes?

[Sponsa-Christi]

1 hour ago, Nunsuch said:

Sorry, but I think that some of the anecdotal evidence here is somewhat equivalent to that of listening to divorced people as authoritative sources on the current state of marriage. Also, to take isolated anecdotes from decades ago and suggest that they may have relevance to the presence is also problematic.

Honestly, though, continuing with this analogy I think divorced people actually would have some decent insights into the current state of marriage in our culture today. Would their experiences alone tell you the full story of what marriage is and could be? No, of course not. But the stories of the divorced could still give some valuable insights as to the challenges married people might face, or why so many marriages today fail. 

Even though there are still lots of good Sisters and healthy communities out there, I think it's beyond obvious that SOMETHING happened to religious life in general in the decades immediately following Vatican II.  The recollections of negative or confusing experiences that religious or those discerning religious life had at the time are just as valid (and even helpful to us) as the more positive stories that others might have. 

Edited April 6, 2018 by Sponsa-Christi
typo

[gloriana35]

On 06/04/2018 at 12:56 AM, Nunsuch said:

You acknowledge on another thread that you have no experience with religious life. Well, as someone who has studied it extensively, and has served as a consultant to many congregations, I have to say that many of the sweeping generalizations you make here are both erroneous and highly problematic. I suspect they have no basis in actual fact, but only in a few speculative examples. Certainly, none of the research on religious life both in the period immediately before OR after Vatican II would sustain what you say here. So, if you do not have sources for what you write here, I would encourage you not to make such disparaging claims.

I DO have experience in religious life. What I said elsewhere was that I have no experience of being in a cloistered Order. I entered a religious community which was not the first I considered - as I mentioned elsewhere, the congregation to which I first applied was moving in directions I did not care to take. But I did enter that other community. This is not speculation. I was a Sister - I knew many Sisters, from varied communities - attended those workshops I mentioned - and so forth. None of this is based on anything I did not personally experience or witness.

Edited April 8, 2018 by gloriana35
Forgot to add a detail

[gloriana35]

I am leaving this forum, since I realised my contributions can do no good. (I gave details about my convent years earlier in this very thread, and Nunsense said I had no experience in religious life and was just using speculation.) I know this is no loss to anyone, but I'll make one final statement. There were complex reasons Sisters left religious life forty years ago - and it too often is assumed it always was about women now having job opportunities, or lay ministries being more appreciated. 

The community to which I belonged has few members left in the countries where they once had many ministries - and those who have entered in recent years most often entered the branches in Africa, India, or the Philippines. It has been sad to see how, within my lifetime, religious life went from being highly present to often dying out. 

[Nunsuch]

1 hour ago, gloriana35 said:

I DO have experience in religious life. What I said elsewhere was that I have no experience of being in a cloistered Order. I entered a religious community which was not the first I considered - as I mentioned elsewhere, the congregation to which I first applied was moving in directions I did not care to take. But I did enter that other community. This is not speculation. I was a Sister - I knew many Sisters, from varied communities - attended those workshops I mentioned - and so forth. None of this is based on anything I did not personally experience or witness.

Sorry for my mistake. I am also sorry for your experience. Meanwhile, I know quite a number of former sisters, most of whom remain in contact with the communities, and have many friends there. Some have become Associates, while others simply maintain informal contact. The research shows that, in the aftermath of Vatican II, at least as many women left religious life because they did not perceive *more* change, while some did leave because there was too much. [Others, of course, transferred, rather than leaving religious life completely.]  

Three books that have a lot of information. One is called something like "Always Our Sister," and is a collection of essays by former members of the Benedictine Sisters, St. Joseph, Minnesota (I have the book, but am not near my study at the moment). Another is "Voices of Silence: A Loretto Patchwork," which is written jointly by sisters and former sisters from the entrance class of 1962. The third is Carole G. Rogers, "Habits of Change: An Oral History of American Nuns." There are also a number of scholarly studies of former sisters. While anecdotal reports are not irrelevant, it is important not to cMonfuse A truth with THE truth.

2 hours ago, gloriana35 said:

I DO have experience in religious life. What I said elsewhere was that I have no experience of being in a cloistered Order. I entered a religious community which was not the first I considered - as I mentioned elsewhere, the congregation to which I first applied was moving in directions I did not care to take. But I did enter that other community. This is not speculation. I was a Sister - I knew many Sisters, from varied communities - attended those workshops I mentioned - and so forth. None of this is based on anything I did not personally experience or witness.

Sorry for my mistake. I am also sorry for your experience. Meanwhile, I know quite a number of former sisters, most of whom remain in contact with the communities, and have many friends there. Some have become Associates, while others simply maintain informal contact. The research shows that, in the aftermath of Vatican II, at least as many women left religious life because they did not perceive *more* change, while some did leave because there was too much. [Others, of course, transferred, rather than leaving religious life completely.]  Others, of course, left or were dismissed (if before final vows) because they never should have been in religious life in the first place. The screening of candidates for most congregations before Vatican II was notoriously lax.

Three books that have a lot of information. One is called something like "Always Our Sister," and is a collection of essays by former members of the Benedictine Sisters, St. Joseph, Minnesota (I have the book, but am not near my study at the moment). Another is "Voices of Silence: A Loretto Patchwork," which is written jointly by sisters and former sisters from the entrance class of 1962. The third is Carole G. Rogers, "Habits of Change: An Oral History of American Nuns." There are also a number of scholarly studies of former sisters. While anecdotal reports are not irrelevant, it is important not to cMonfuse A truth with THE truth.

 

[Terese]

Do any of you know if there is counseling for Sisters leaving their community?

I left my community after four years and I was temporary professed.

I do need counseling please!! I do not have much money so.. please help.

Maybe someone out of the kindness of his or her heart can do an act of charity.

Thanks!!

God bless!!

[maar]

Dear Terese,

I'm about to go to Mass and will offer it up for you with confidence that God will provide a sound and affordable counselor to help you process your experience and navigate the next chapter of your life.

And I will of course pass on any lead I may stumble upon.

The Lord is with you always! Hold steady!

Edited August 2, 2018 by maar

[passerby]

43 minutes ago, Terese said:

Do any of you know if there is counseling for Sisters leaving their community?

I left my community after four years and I was temporary professed.

I do need counseling please!! I do not have much money so.. please help.

Maybe someone out of the kindness of his or her heart can do an act of charity.

Thanks!!

God bless!!

Dear Terese,

I will pray for you as you go through this time. I suggest reaching out to Leonie's Longing - it is a website/community of people who have left religious life and from what I understand, they often help people with resources upon leaving (i.e. resume help, prayer support, etc.) If you check out their "resources" page, there is information about getting connected with a Catholic counsellor. I'd encourage you to visit their site.

Leonie's Longing

[Guest]

I will keep you in prayer too @Terese

[Marie Terese]

Wow- I wish I hd found this continuing discussion when I left the convent in 1979. My experience in leaving was horrible - it was like I had dies- maybe worse. The community totally fell apart a number of years later. I didn't know anyone else who had left when I left (except a couple friends who had left before me). This discussion would have really helped. 40 years later- all is ok- but that spot in my heart remains soft!