A More Humane "don't Ask Don't Tell"?

[OraProMe]

[quote name='Socrates' date='31 March 2010 - 12:18 PM' timestamp='1270055894' post='2084116']
I've explained this before, and I'm not going to repeat it endlessly. And saying that because other evils exist, we must allow more evils is not a valid argument.
The military's reasons for not allowing homosexuals are not based on what the Catholic Church says, anyway. You're the one who keeps insisting this is an exclusively Catholic issue.


Prove it? How, you want us to go spend a month in a foxhole together? Your claims are just as unsubstantiated. However, plenty of commanding military officers with decades of military experience behind them disagree with you. And most of my friends who have served in the armed forces agree with them. No offense, but I trust them in this matter more than you.
But sorry, I was forgetting that they're not 18-year-old kids who know everything. We should all bow to your wisdom.

As no one's asking you to join the U.S. military, I don't see why this should be such a big deal to you.



My point was, the military's ban on homosexuality had nothing to do with "one Church's position." The U.S. Army was not founded by Catholics. Opposition to homosexual activity is hardly some peculiar Catholic dogma, but is part of the entire Judeao-Christian moral tradition.
Homosexual activity was banned in the American military since we first had an army, and even Thomas Jefferson (about as liberal a Deist as you could find back then) thought sodomy a crime punishable by castration.
But it's nice we now have an 18-year-old Aussie to explain to the American founding fathers what their principles really mean.
People may be entitled to their opinions, but they are not entitled to military service, nor that the military cater to them.

I don't think either one of us are going to convince the other on this issue, as our principles are fundamentally different, so I see little point in arguing further.
[/quote]


You were the one who used your belief that the Catholic Church is the "one, true church" to justify forcing Her positions on the army so I don't know why you're saying it now doesn't matter. It doesn't really matter how many people or religions viewed (thanks for using past tense too) homosexuality as immoral, the point of living in a liberal country is that person a can't force their beliefs onto person b.

[quote]
But it's nice we now have an 18-year-old Aussie to explain to the American founding fathers what their principles really mean.[/quote]
Dude, you weren't even good enough to get into the army and that was probably based on a valid reason, not something ridiculous like being gay. I mean if you didn't make the cut why should I, or anyone else on this board, take your opinions on the matter seriously?

Edited April 2, 2010 by OraProMe

[Saint Therese]

This thread bores me.

[OraProMe]

Then don't post here.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='30 March 2010 - 06:02 PM' timestamp='1269986572' post='2083628']
Has it ever been the case that all sexual contact was prohibited between personnel?
Sounds like it would work better, IMO.......
[/quote]
The military does forbid certain relationships. The military regulates fraternization and enforces with military law, the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Certain situations, like fraternization within a chain of command, are more serious than others. Fraternization is between officers and enlisted, and by "officers" that means commissioned and sometimes non-commissioned.

The pro-homosexual crowd needs to understand the military is not regulating what goes on in the bedroom. Those who join agree to operate within these rules, and the rules exist for a good reason.

Does the military discriminate? Of course! Every employer does to an extent. Not all discrimination is bad. The military disqualifies people with physical impairments, drug usage (being an addict not required), insufficient aptitude, and even for being overweight. The military operates as one unit. It discriminates to ensure the highest level of effectiveness. Any allowance which compromises the unit compromises its effectiveness.

Someone raised the issue that the military allows men and women to fight together. Therefore, they should let homosexual fight too. Men and women fight together, but they do not bunk together. There is much more to operating the military than fighting. As someone who has served, I do not see how the military can allow homosexuals in without making special accommodations.

The military is not a petri dish for social experiments. The original ban should be restored.

[dominicansoul]

why all this fuss over one's homosexuality...???

I thought it wasn't supposed to "define" who they are? Aren't they more than just their sexual preference???

it seems to me, that the reason the military spends time contemplating all this, is because they recognize what the APA denies....that one's homosexual tendencies, have a great effect on a soldier's psychological makeup...that, in fact....it is a mental disorder...

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 April 2010 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1270220460' post='2085535']
why all this fuss over one's homosexuality...???

I thought it wasn't supposed to "define" who they are? Aren't they more than just their sexual preference???

it seems to me, that the reason the military spends time contemplating all this, is because they recognize what the APA denies....that one's homosexual tendencies, have a great effect on a soldier's psychological makeup...that, in fact....it is a mental disorder...
[/quote]

Good point.

I think we need to realize that one reason the military has such policies because they're in a serious business.
Maybe we should start a new Homosexual Apologetics Phorum, because it seems that a lot of threads lately end up being just that.

[Semper Catholic]

As someone who is actually in the military I'll tell you this, NO ONE CARES.

I've served with a couple gay people and they always did their job and not one day did they show up to work dressed up like Ru Paul and snapping their fingers.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='02 April 2010 - 05:31 PM' timestamp='1270243904' post='2085682']
As someone who is actually in the military I'll tell you this, NO ONE CARES.

I've served with a couple gay people and they always did their job and not one day did they show up to work dressed up like Ru Paul and snapping their fingers.
[/quote]
apparently, the Generals care...and the fact that this is so overblown and made into drama...means it must be important to somebody...

[Saint Therese]

I don't buy that no one in the military cares about this.

[Semper Catholic]

I would say the same amount of people care about Gays serving as they do Blacks serving.

When it comes down to it, Marines and Soldiers have bigger things to worry about.

For the most part Generals hate change. Mainly because they'd rather not deal with entirely new and foreign issues that need to be taught and written about. I can just see the countless hours spent in front of a power point discussing homosexuals in the military.

Like I said the people who are most butthurt about this are those that aren't even serving.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='02 April 2010 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1270245483' post='2085714']
I would say the same amount of people care about Gays serving as they do Blacks serving.

[/quote]

[img]http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/funny-pictures-super-genius-kitten-has-a-very-large-brain.jpg[/img]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='02 April 2010 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1270245483' post='2085714']
I would say the same amount of people care about Gays serving as they do Blacks serving.

When it comes down to it, Marines and Soldiers have bigger things to worry about.

For the most part Generals hate change. Mainly because they'd rather not deal with entirely new and foreign issues that need to be taught and written about. I can just see the countless hours spent in front of a power point discussing homosexuals in the military.

Like I said the people who are most butthurt about this are those that aren't even serving.
[/quote]
My post a few messages up must be on stealth.

[Semper Catholic]

[quote name='kamiller42' date='02 April 2010 - 05:09 PM' timestamp='1270246185' post='2085723']
My post a few messages up must be on stealth.
[/quote]
I've served with gay Marines (even one who was basically open to everyone save the Bn commander) and it didn't compromise a thing. In fact he was one of the best Marines I've ever served with.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='02 April 2010 - 06:15 PM' timestamp='1270246545' post='2085728']
I've served with gay Marines (even one who was basically open to everyone save the Bn commander) and it didn't compromise a thing. In fact he was one of the best Marines I've ever served with.
[/quote]
Are men and women bunking together yet? Why not?

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Semper Catholic' date='02 April 2010 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1270245483' post='2085714']
Like I said the people who are most [b]butthurt[/b] about this are those that aren't even serving.
[/quote]

that's a poor choice of words in a thread with this topic...