Arizona Immigration Bill

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='02 May 2010 - 09:21 PM' timestamp='1272849672' post='2103881']
But you prefer their opinion to what Knight has been saying. What makes their opinion the right one?
[/quote]

I don't agree with Knight's assessment of what the good Archbishops are actually saying:
[quote]
Here we go again!

Anyone who does not believe that “history repeats itself” has only to take a look at the unfortunate new law in Arizona.

Throughout American history, whenever there is tension and turmoil in society — economic distress, political rifts, war, distrust and confusion in culture — the immigrant unfailingly becomes the scapegoat.

It’s a supreme paradox in our American culture — where every person unless a Native American, is a descendent of immigrants — that we seem to harbor an ingrained fear of “the other,” which, in our history, is usually the foreigner (immigrant), the Jew, the Catholic, or the black. (cf. Religious Outsiders, by R. L. Moore, or Immigrants and Exiles, by K. Miller).

So we can chart periodic spasms of “anti-immigrant” fever in our nation’s history: the Nativists of the 1840’s, who led mobs to torch Irish homes and Catholic churches; the Know-Nothings of the 1850’s who wanted to deny the vote to everyone except white, Protestant, native-born, “pure” Americans; the American Protective Association of the 1880’s and 1890’s who were scared of the arrival of immigrants from Italy, Poland, and Germany; the Ku Klux Klan of the 1920’s who spewed hate against blacks, Jews, Catholics, and “forn-ers”; the “eugenics movement” of the 1920’s and 1930’s who worried that racial purity was being compromised by the immigrant and non-Anglo Saxon blood lines; and the Protestants and Other Americans United of the 1950’s who were apprehensive about Catholic immigrants and their grandkids upsetting the religious and cultural concord of America.

And, here we go again! Arizona is so scared, apparently, and so convinced that the #1 threat to society today is the immigrant that it has passed a mean-spirited bill of doubtful constitutionality that has as its intention the expulsion of the immigrant.

What history teaches us, of course, is that not only are such narrow-minded moves unfair and usually unconstitutional, but they are counterproductive and harmful.

Because the anti-immigrant strain in our American heritage, however strong, is not dominant. Thank God, there’s another sentiment in our national soul, and that’s one of welcome and embrace to the immigrant.

That’s the ethos we New Yorkers are most at home with, as we look out at the Statue of Liberty, whose torch of welcome has caused tears of joy in the eyes of millions of our grandparents as they arrive exhausted and nearly desperate, and as we today live next door to Latino, Haitian, Asian and mid-eastern neighbors.

That’s the ethos most especially a part of the Catholic — the word means everybody — culture, which has been a spiritual mother to immigrants to America, who were and are mostly Catholic, who have found a home in parishes and schools which helped get them moved-in and settled in America.

From even a purely business point of view, a warm welcome to immigrants is known to be good for the economy and beneficial for a society.

To welcome the immigrant, to work hard for their legalization and citizenship, to help them feel at home, to treat them as neighbors and allies in the greatest project of human rights and ethnic and religious harmony in history — the United States of America — flows from the bright, noble side of our American character.

[b]To blame them, stalk them, outlaw them, harass them, and consider them outsiders is unbiblical, inhumane, and un-American.[/b]

[b]Yes, every society has the duty to protect its borders and thoughtfully monitor its population. [u]The call is to do this justly, sanely, and civilly.[/u][/b]

My brother bishops in Arizona worry this is not the case there. They have been joined by Cardinal Roger Mahony, Jewish, other Christians, and various civic and human rights groups.

I’m on their side.

I want history to repeat itself — but the “Statue of Liberty side,” not the Nativist side.

P.S. I thought you might be interested in a presentation on immigration reform that will be given at Fordham University on Monday, May 3. Cardinal Mahony will speak on “Our Heritage & Our Future: Why Enacting Comprehensive Immigration Reform Is a Moral Imperative.” Click here to view details on his presentation.[/quote]

This is taken from Archbishop Dolan's blog. I don't find his way of thinking racist, I don't think the Archbishop is condoning illegal activity, I believe he's strongly supporting the wisdom give to us by Jesus Christ on how to treat the alien among us. And that's what I'm sticking to...I believe this law has a good meaning, but the actual enforcement of this law will be sticky...

Edited May 3, 2010 by dominicansoul

[Seven77]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 10:04 PM' timestamp='1272848647' post='2103866']
I'll stick with Mother Church's teachings on sovereignty and just laws like the Arizona Law. And not with a racist policy that cheats the rest of the world and rewards criminal behavior.
[/quote]

How is that a [i]just[/i] law though? The US Bishops' certainty don't think it is just. We should be careful of the "by any means necessary" approach.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Seven77' date='02 May 2010 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1272850358' post='2103889']
How is that a [i]just[/i] law though? The US Bishops' certainty don't think it is just. We should be careful of the "by any means necessary" approach.
[/quote]

What part of the Law says "by any means necessary"? It doesn't Some US Bishops of the USCCB don't think that banning women from being priest is just... These US Bishops are playing politics.

[Seven77]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1272850736' post='2103892']
What part of the Law says "by any means necessary"? It doesn't Some US Bishops of the USCCB don't think that banning women from being priest is just... These US Bishops are playing politics.
[/quote]

racial profiling in order to enforce immigration laws is a "by any means necessary" approach. US Bishops of the USCCB don't collectively issue documents with hetrodox positions---at any rate, however, perfectly orthodox bishops are against the AZ law.

[KnightofChrist]

The "Statue of Liberty side" required people to enter this nation under the law, the same law that Arizona has just past.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1272850736' post='2103892']
What part of the Law says "by any means necessary"? It doesn't Some US Bishops of the USCCB don't think that banning women from being priest is just... These US Bishops are [u]playing politics[/u].
[/quote]

Just as politicians do when the flip from pro-life to pro-choice and we still don't get angry at them all the time. People will be people.

We don't de-humanize which is what is going on in AZ.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Seven77' date='02 May 2010 - 09:42 PM' timestamp='1272850925' post='2103894']
racial profiling in order to enforce immigration laws is a "by any means necessary" approach.
[/quote]

Where is "racial profiling" in this law? Please find the paragraph in the law. You cannot it isn't there. The trouble is many who are against this law do so in ignorance of it, and what it actually enforces.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 09:32 PM' timestamp='1272850334' post='2103888']
I don't agree with Knight's assessment of what the good Archbishops are actually saying:


This is taken from Archbishop Dolan's blog. I don't find his way of thinking racist, I don't think the Archbishop is condoning illegal activity, I believe he's strongly supporting the wisdom give to us by Jesus Christ on how to treat the alien among us. And that's what I'm sticking to...I believe this law has a good meaning, but the actual enforcement of this law will be sticky...
[/quote]

How do you propose we deal with illegal immigration, if asking to check peoples' papers is a great offense?

[dominicansoul]

[quote]E. A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER, WITHOUT A WARRANT, MAY ARREST A PERSON IF THE OFFICER HAS PROBABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THAT THE PERSON HAS COMMITTED 38
ANY PUBLIC OFFENSE THAT MAKES THE PERSON REMOVABLE FROM THE UNITED STATES. 39
[/quote]

This is one line in the bill...and there is nothing more to it written in the bill...

I wish the bill would describe in detail what types of public offenses this kind of action would warrant? In my humble opinion, and by experience in my own life, this just gives law enforcement officers the use of their own judgements, in order to arrest, and detain persons who may be innocent...

I just fear that this will give law enforcement officers free reign to harrass innocent, Mexican-American Citizens of the United States of America...(that means, they are AMERICAN, y'all!)

I know a little about law enforcement...I used to work with the Criminal Investigations Division...believe me, when an officer thinks you are a criminal, he will see to it that you will be arrested and questioned...and he will use any little bit of proof (his own "probable cause") to bring you in...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='02 May 2010 - 09:48 PM' timestamp='1272851293' post='2103898']
How do you propose we deal with illegal immigration, if asking to check peoples' papers is a great offense?
[/quote]

I think the cop that pulled me other the other night because he thought I was speeding and asked for my ID was a racist! How dare he ask me to prove that I have a license to drive!

[Seven77]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1272851108' post='2103897']
Where is "racial profiling" in this law? Please find the paragraph in the law. You cannot it isn't there. The trouble is many who are against this law do so in ignorance of it, and what it actually enforces.
[/quote]

[quote]According to ABC news, the new Arizona law makes it a crime to be in the state illegally and [b]allows police to arrest and question suspected individuals about their status without a warrant.[/b][/quote]

does abc news have it right?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1272851384' post='2103900']
This is one line in the bill...and there is nothing more to it written in the bill...

I wish the bill would describe in detail what types of public offenses this kind of action would warrant? In my humble opinion, and by experience in my own life, this just gives law enforcement officers the use of their own judgements, in order to arrest, and detain persons who may be innocent...

I just fear that this will give law enforcement officers free reign to harrass innocent, Mexican-American Citizens of the United States of America...(that means, they are AMERICAN, y'all!)

I know a little about law enforcement...I used to work with the Criminal Investigations Division...believe me, when an officer thinks you are a criminal, he will see to it that you will be arrested and questioned...and he will use any little bit of proof (his own "probable cause") to bring you in...
[/quote]


That one line in the bill is very similar to any law of a state that enforces that people need a license to drive on the road. A officer does not need a warrant to search your car, or arrest you if you cannot provide a divers license.

[Seven77]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1272851384' post='2103900']
This is one line in the bill...and there is nothing more to it written in the bill...

I wish the bill would describe in detail what types of public offenses this kind of action would warrant? In my humble opinion, and by experience in my own life, this just gives law enforcement officers the use of their own judgements, in order to arrest, and detain persons who may be innocent...

I just fear that this will give law enforcement officers free reign to harrass innocent, Mexican-American Citizens of the United States of America...(that means, they are AMERICAN, y'all!)

[/quote]

i agree w/every word...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1272851384' post='2103900']
I know a little about law enforcement...I used to work with the Criminal Investigations Division...believe me, when an officer thinks you are a criminal, he will see to it that you will be arrested and questioned...and he will use any little bit of proof (his own "probable cause") to bring you in...
[/quote]

What a nice little generalization.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Seven77' date='02 May 2010 - 09:51 PM' timestamp='1272851484' post='2103902']
does abc news have it right?
[/quote]

One, I wouldn't trust the liberals at ABC news, two ABC news didn't write the law, three, law enforcement uses the same justification to arrest drivers without licenses.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 09:49 PM' timestamp='1272851396' post='2103901']
I think the cop that pulled me other the other night because he thought I was speeding and asked for my ID was a racist! How dare he ask me to prove that I have a license to drive!
[/quote]

Yes, just as the van full of Arabs I saw pulled over last night were discriminated against. Who cares that there was a bomb scare in Times Square, and who cares that their big, shady van was heading towards New York City. It was not politically correct to pull them over.

[KnightofChrist]

Also note that Mexicans are not the only ones coming over the border, it's all kinds of races, and Law Enforcement understands this quite well. This is not a law just for Mexicans, but any illegal immigrate no matter their race.

[Seven77]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1272851396' post='2103901']
I think the cop that pulled me other the other night because he thought I was speeding and asked for my ID was a racist! How dare he ask me to prove that I have a license to drive!
[/quote]

according to US history, some cops have wrongly targeted people just because of their skin color.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='02 May 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1272851918' post='2103913']
Also note that Mexicans are not the only ones coming over the border, it's all kinds of races, and Law Enforcement understands this quite well. This is not a law just for Mexicans, but any illegal immigrate no matter their race.
[/quote]

Also, I highly doubt a police officer will pull up next to a Mexican dressed in a suit and tie walking out of a coffee shop and demand to see paperwork. I feel this law will be enforced during, say, a drug bust.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Seven77' date='02 May 2010 - 09:58 PM' timestamp='1272851919' post='2103914']
according to US history, some cops have wrongly targeted people just because of their skin color.
[/quote]

Yes, but it is racist and bigoted to assume that all cops, a majority of cops, or a lot of cops are going to go around and arrest people because the cop is white and the other person isn't. All this law does is enforce existing Federal Law, it does not give cops the free for all to start putting Mexicans in death camps.