Arizona Immigration Bill

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='havok579257' date='03 May 2010 - 12:01 AM' timestamp='1272859267' post='2104009']
its absolutly nieve to think this law will not be abused. cops are normal people just like you and me. they all sin. cops who are against illegals being in america will start finding every minor offense to put on people just so they can question their immigration status.
[/quote]

Never said the law would not be abused. If your argument against the Arizona law is that it will be abused, then there is no sense in having any law in this country.

[quote name='havok579257' date='03 May 2010 - 12:08 AM' timestamp='1272859718' post='2104016']
open boarders would not be a problem with the fair tax. how about instead of getting mad at illegals who come to america for a better life for themselfs and their children you get made at ALL politicians for using the out dated tax system we have in america. thats the real problem.
[/quote]

It is naive for you to assume that all illegal immigrants are innocent people looking for a better life.

[havok579257]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 May 2010 - 12:17 AM' timestamp='1272860224' post='2104025']
Never said the law would not be abused. If your argument against the Arizona law is that it will be abused, then there is no sense in having any law in this country.



It is naive for you to assume that all illegal immigrants are innocent people looking for a better life.
[/quote]


i don't assume that all illegals are innocent and looking for a better life. i would say at least over half are innocent and looking for a better life. i just thinks its wrong to throw someone back into a hell hole of a life when all they are trying to do is make a better life for them and their family. its not like its even remotely easy to become a legal immigrant in america. what would you do if you were in thier situation. if you lived in a horrible country which was unsafe for you and your children but the country you tried to flee to was near impossible to get into legally. would you just stay where your at and pray your family is not killled because of your inaction or would you take action and try to keep your family safe?

i could understand your argument if legal immigration were not so hard to get. but when we make it so hard to beomce legal immigrants, what do you expect?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='havok579257' date='03 May 2010 - 01:08 AM' timestamp='1272859718' post='2104016']
well that's a dumb argument i have heard for keeping illegals out. i guess if you help a homeless man you should also do the same things as above since a homeless man pays for none of those things either.


open boarders would not be a problem with the fair tax. how about instead of getting mad at illegals who come to america for a better life for themselfs and their children you get made at ALL politicians for using the out dated tax system we have in america. thats the real problem.
[/quote]
You volenteer to give food to the homeless man. He doesn't come into your house and expect to be fed and treated like a non-criminal.

American tax policy is NOT the source of illegal immigration. It's pure greed on the part of the Mexicans. They're coming here for $$ that their government/society/culture excludes them from. They're living in a more corrupt system than what they're finding in the US.

My grandparents came here on a boat despite the dangers and prejudice they faced. Some of their brothers and sisters (my great aunts & uncles)and neices and nephews died trying to come here. Their motivation was still greed, looking for a better life than what they were finding in government controlled economies.

If capitalism and democracy are so evil, fundamentally morally flawed, morally superior Catholics should be doing everything they can to prevent others from losing their lives or breaking up their families to follow the path of error.

[Maggyie]

There is probably not one bishop in the United States who would support this law. I am trying to think of one and coming up empty. Some of the most conservative bishops are the most fervent in supporting and defending the human rights of the undocumented.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Maggie' date='03 May 2010 - 08:52 AM' timestamp='1272891128' post='2104137']
There is probably not one bishop in the United States who would support this law. I am trying to think of one and coming up empty. Some of the most conservative bishops are the most fervent in supporting and defending the human rights of the undocumented.
[/quote]


...because the human rights of the undocumented trumps their "illegal" status...


[quote name='dominicansoul' date='02 May 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1272847256' post='2103852']
i think I'll stick to the Bishops on this one...
[/quote]

I trust their opinions, (especially Bishop Dolan's...)

[Ephrem Augustine]

Dude, Cholos are not Mexican...
they are as American as apple pie and baseball.
When I went to Mexico, I told them I was from LA, they laughed and asked about the cholos, because cholos are a distinctly mexican american phenomenon. There are so many stereotypes being thrown out here its ridiculous.
I know Hispanic, Mexican Americans who have been in this country longer than my family has, "We did not cross the border, the border crossed us."

As for our Bishops, not one is supporting anarchy. They are prophetically questioning the validity of these laws, crafted by human minds. Knight of Christ you are using so many abstract principles that do not even seem to touch on the reality here. You are using so many broad and sweeping generalizations that associate all undocumented with crime, and all attempts to question the justice behind this law as anarchy. You my friend, are playing the straw man card, AND IT IS NOT GOING TO BE TOLERATED. check your logic homey, and please, more importantly check your charity.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Ephrem Augustine

[Anomaly]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='03 May 2010 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1272892282' post='2104142']
...because the human rights of the undocumented trumps their "illegal" status...




I trust their opinions, (especially Bishop Dolan's...)
[/quote]
Right!!!! Trust the opinions of the Bishops. That's always worked. How many here trust Cardinal Mahoney's opinion of church design and protocol at Mass? You can't trust the Bishops to properly use Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers or see that the faithful are properly catechized, things that are in the realm of their expertise. But these moral icons are going to pass judgement on applying the law. Follow the money. Of course they'll curry favor with the immigrants because while working here in the US, they can still tithe to the local parish.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='03 May 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1272894776' post='2104153']
Dude, Cholos are not Mexican...
they are as American as apple pie and baseball.
When I went to Mexico, I told them I was from LA, they laughed and asked about the cholos, because cholos are a distinctly mexican american phenomenon. There are so many stereotypes being thrown out here its ridiculous.
I know Hispanic, Mexican Americans who have been in this country longer than my family has, "We did not cross the border, the border crossed us."
[/quote]

thanx for correcting me and making that distinction. i just assumed "cholo" was a mexican gangsta, either from here or from across the border...



[quote]"We did not cross the border, the border crossed us."[/quote]





[size="1"]oh...and I'm not a dude
[/size]

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='03 May 2010 - 10:04 AM' timestamp='1272895454' post='2104156']
Right!!!! Trust the opinions of the Bishops. That's always worked. How many here trust Cardinal Mahoney's opinion of church design and protocol at Mass? You can't trust the Bishops to properly use Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers or see that the faithful are properly catechized, things that are in the realm of their expertise. But these moral icons are going to pass judgement on applying the law. Follow the money. Of course they'll curry favor with the immigrants because while working here in the US, they can still tithe to the local parish.
[/quote]


this seems to be the opinion of many outside the church....that the bishops are hungry for the immigrants money, and that's the only reason they speak out...

I honestly don't think that this is the case...most of the immigrants I know are very poor, and belong to very poor parishes...

...and yes, all those prime examples you use are not areas where I trust the judgements of men, but only give it to God and let Him worry about those things...


...but in this case...I'm going to stick with their opinion...more than that of some phatmassers...even though many of their arguments are very, very good...

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='03 May 2010 - 10:11 AM' timestamp='1272895885' post='2104160']
...but in this case...I'm going to stick with their opinion...more than that of some phatmassers...even though many of their arguments are very, very good...
[/quote]

You are sticking with their opinion because it is your opinion. Do you agree with every opinion a Bishop has? No. Do you have to? No. I just get irritated when someone pulls the "Oh I am listening to the Bishop on this one" as if, since it is a Bishop, that opinion is morally right or morally superior. Listening to a Bishop's personal opinion is very selective and subjective. Unless you agree with every single opinion of every single Bishop, of course.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Anomaly' date='03 May 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1272895454' post='2104156']
Right!!!! Trust the opinions of the Bishops. That's always worked. How many here trust Cardinal Mahoney's opinion of church design and protocol at Mass? You can't trust the Bishops to properly use Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers or see that the faithful are properly catechized, things that are in the realm of their expertise. But these moral icons are going to pass judgement on applying the law. Follow the money. Of course they'll curry favor with the immigrants because while working here in the US, they can still tithe to the local parish.
[/quote]

This is exactly the same sort of stuff that liberals say when the Bishops step on THEIR political toes. The bishops are not speaking infalliably so we can ignore them. The bishops covered up for sexual abuse so we can ignore them when they talk about homosexuality. How dare these "moral icons" pass judgment on gay people! Maybe when they stop letting priests rape little boys we'll listen to them ([i]actual words people have said to me[/i]). The bishops are just after money so we can ignore what they say about healthcare. The bishops screwed up x so we can ignore what they teach about y. Cardinal Mahoney has an ugly church, so if he disagrees with us, we can ignore him.

Although of course if he says something that we DO agree with of course then he becomes THE Infalliable Authority On That Issue. I have seen "conservatives" discount the bishops left and right but then if Archbishop Burke, a curial official with a relatively obscure post, says something it is "the Vatican" speaking.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' date='03 May 2010 - 08:52 AM' timestamp='1272891128' post='2104137']
There is probably not one bishop in the United States who would support this law. I am trying to think of one and coming up empty. Some of the most conservative bishops are the most fervent in supporting and defending the human rights of the undocumented.
[/quote]

I fail to see how this law flies in the face of human rights.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Maggie' date='03 May 2010 - 11:27 AM' timestamp='1272900435' post='2104173']
This is exactly the same sort of stuff that liberals say when the Bishops step on THEIR political toes. The bishops are not speaking infalliably so we can ignore them. The bishops covered up for sexual abuse so we can ignore them when they talk about homosexuality. How dare these "moral icons" pass judgment on gay people! Maybe when they stop letting priests rape little boys we'll listen to them ([i]actual words people have said to me[/i]). The bishops are just after money so we can ignore what they say about healthcare. The bishops screwed up x so we can ignore what they teach about y. Cardinal Mahoney has an ugly church, so if he disagrees with us, we can ignore him.

Although of course if he says something that we DO agree with of course then he becomes THE Infalliable Authority On That Issue. I have seen "conservatives" discount the bishops left and right but then if Archbishop Burke, a curial official with a relatively obscure post, says something it is "the Vatican" speaking.
[/quote]

Yes, I just said that "listening" to a Bishop is very selective and subjective, unless an individual "listens" to every single opinion and treats said opinions as infallible.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Maggie' date='03 May 2010 - 12:27 PM' timestamp='1272900435' post='2104173']
This is exactly the same sort of stuff that liberals say when the Bishops step on THEIR political toes. The bishops are not speaking infalliably so we can ignore them. The bishops covered up for sexual abuse so we can ignore them when they talk about homosexuality. How dare these "moral icons" pass judgment on gay people! Maybe when they stop letting priests rape little boys we'll listen to them ([i]actual words people have said to me[/i]). The bishops are just after money so we can ignore what they say about healthcare. The bishops screwed up x so we can ignore what they teach about y. Cardinal Mahoney has an ugly church, so if he disagrees with us, we can ignore him.

Although of course if he says something that we DO agree with of course then he becomes THE Infalliable Authority On That Issue. I have seen "conservatives" discount the bishops left and right but then if Archbishop Burke, a curial official with a relatively obscure post, says something it is "the Vatican" speaking.
[/quote]
So you're making my point. I'm neither a libral or conservative Catholic. However, during the decades I was a practicing and faithful Catholic, the above hair-splitting was(is)the status quo. You can find the Magisterium agreeing with almost whatever opinion you care to hold.

Immigration Reform came up a few years ago too, you know. What happened with that? Politically minded Catholic clergy like Mahoney encited the people into a rage that any reform was racist, so we got nothing. They stupidly became pawns to other politicians with other motives and agendas.

What's wrong with strenthening the borders and providing 6 month work visas requiring aliens to return to their country for 2 months before re-entering. Border patrols wouldn't be overwelmed by sheer numbers, and criminals would lose the advantage of just one of millions crossing the border illegally. If priests and bishops were morally honest, they'd be telling Mexicans to stay with their families instead of risking their lives for more material goods. Then legitimate political pressure could be made to allow legal aliens to come and work in the US. Maybe Catholics should be discussing how a country as rich in oil exports, hard working people, and natural resouces like Mexico can be such a cesspool of hopelessness for it's people for hundreds of years.

Funny how the hellish American Capitalist Society, rampant with racist haters and bigots, provides a standard of living that even our desperately poor illegal aliens live better that 80% of the rest of the world.

[God the Father]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='03 May 2010 - 12:44 AM' timestamp='1272858252' post='2103997']
Violent crime has been eradicated in Chicago??? I and about three million other people must not have gotten the memo....
[/quote]

Violent crime related to alcohol trafficking in Chicago has been eradicated, yes. Violent crime in Chicago is now mostly related to those substances which are still illegal.

It's really a remarkable phenomenon: when something is legal and accessible for market value, violent crime related thereto decreases dramatically. On the other hand, when the state interferes by making something illegal or cost-free, complications occur.

But politicians have to keep gas in their Acuras, and the best way to do that is to use our money to send some dark people welfare checks and send other dark people back to Tijuana.

Edited May 3, 2010 by God the Father

[LouisvilleFan]

MLB teams are worried about this... they're saying if someone is suspected of being an illegal and cannot produce the paperwork right there for the officer, they can be taken to jail. That's definitely unconstitutional.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='God the Father' date='03 May 2010 - 10:13 AM' timestamp='1272906835' post='2104208']
Violent crime related to alcohol trafficking in Chicago has been eradicated, yes. Violent crime in Chicago is now mostly related to those substances which are still illegal.

It's really a remarkable phenomenon: when something is legal and accessible for market value, violent crime related thereto decreases dramatically. On the other hand, when the state interferes by making something illegal or cost-free, complications occur.

But politicians have to keep gas in their Acuras, and the best way to do that is to use our money to send some dark people welfare checks and send other dark people back to Tijuana.
[/quote]


Acuras? oh please, any self respecting politician simply must roll in a 'Benz.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Because MIKolbe said so.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 May 2010 - 11:26 AM' timestamp='1272900380' post='2104172']
You are sticking with their opinion because it is your opinion. Do you agree with every opinion a Bishop has? No. Do you have to? No. I just get irritated when someone pulls the "Oh I am listening to the Bishop on this one" as if, since it is a Bishop, that opinion is morally right or morally superior. Listening to a Bishop's personal opinion is very selective and subjective. Unless you agree with every single opinion of every single Bishop, of course.
[/quote]

...the only thing that irritates me is generic toilet paper...

[Nihil Obstat]

As an aside...... all things being equal, I'm more inclined to trust a bishop on a moral issue than to distrust him.

Just like if I want financial advice, I'm going to be more inclined to trust a financial planner than to not.



There are, of course, poor, heterodox, and simply heretical bishops, just as there are incompetent lazy and stupid financial planners, but they're the exceptions that prove the rule. At the very least, by virtue of his office, the opinion of a bishop on a moral matter deserves careful attention by us, as Catholics, and should absolutely not be dismissed just because we initially disagree with it.





My two cents, anyway.
[img]http://theblackcordelias.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/archbishop-fulton-sheen.jpg[/img]