Osas

[the lumberjack]

if you are truly saved, then no, you CAN'T NOT accept it.

otherwise, you're like one of the other places the seed landed.

[Dave]

If you can't not accept it, then why does Paul warn his audiences to avoid sin and that whoever continues to sin will be damned? These people were already Christians. If they couldn't lose their salvation if they were truly saved, then what wasthe point of Paul warning them?

[the lumberjack]

gimme the Scripture dave...

[God Conquers]

I know that at that end, our arguments are the same.

But this whole thing about "not being saved in the first place" if you mess up is what I was arguing against. You're saved, you're saved, from CHrist's perspective, no matter what you do inbetween, but our actions can separate or destroy that relationship. But it doen't mena that we were "never saved" in the first place.

[BullnaChinaShop]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 14 2004, 02:43 PM']if you are truly saved, then no, you CAN'T NOT accept it.

otherwise, you're like one of the other places the seed landed.[/quote]
But because of our free will we can always, even up to our deaths, reject something that we once accepted. Because of this we can not be truely "saved" until we die and are incapable of turning way from God. Once we die we are either turned to God or away from Him. At that point we are either saved or damned. Up until them we must work out our salvation by doing our best to live our lives as Christ commanded with faith that he has redeemed us by his death and resurection.

[Dave]

There are too many to list every single one, but here are some highlights ...

Rom. 11:20-22 - we can be in the tree of God's grace by faith in the Messiah, then quit believing and persevering and be cut off.

1 Cor. 9:22,27 - even Saint Paul recognized that he could lose his salvation by choosing wrong. Not every runner receives a prize. If Paul thought that he could lose his salvation, why are many Protestant churches so presumptuous to think that they cannot lose theirs?

1 Cor. 9:27 - the word "disqualified" that Paul uses comes from the Greek word "adokimos" which literally means cut off from Christ, or reprobate. This proves that Paul believes he can lose his salvation. Protestants, therefore, who believe in "once saved, always saved" have to argue that "disqualified" cannot refer to being cut off from Christ and salvation. Instead, they argue that "disqualified" only refers to receiving less rewards in heaven. But Scripture disproves their claim:

Rom. 1:28; Titus 1:16; 2 Tim. 3:8; Heb. 6:8; 2 Cor. 13:5-7 - for example, in these verses "adokimos" always refers to those reprobates who are to be condemned by God. It has nothing to do with going to heaven with less rewards.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Paul says he is not aware of anything against himself, but he is still not acquitted. Paul is not presumptuous about his salvation. Only the Lord is our Judge.

1 Cor. 6:9-11 - we can be washed, sanctified, and justified, yet Paul still warns us that we can be deceived and become unrighteous.

1 Cor. 10:12 - anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. You can be standing in God's grace, and then fall away.

1 Cor. 15:1-2 - we can be believers (predestined to grace) but believe in vain. Scripture refutes the novel Protestant theory "once saved, always saved."

2 Cor. 6:1 - we can receive the grace of God (predestined to grace) in vain. We can choose not to cooperate with His grace.

2 Cor. 11:2-3 - I betrothed you to Christ, but I am afraid that your thoughts will be led astray from a devotion to Christ. Paul thus teaches that we can be in Christ, and still fall away from Christ. Once saved, always saved?

Gal. 5:4 - Paul teaches that we can be in Christ, then be severed from Him and fall away from God's grace.

Phil. 2:12 - we cannot assume salvation. We need to work it out to the end with fear and trembling. If "once saved, always saved" were true, why would the great apostle Paul have to work his salvation out in fear and trembling?

Phil. 3:11-12 - again, Saint Paul acknowledges the need to endure to the end and has no presumption of salvation.

Col. 1:21-23 - we have now been reconciled in His body to be presented holy and blameless, provided we are steadfast.

Col. 2:18-19 - a man puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind has lost the connection with Jesus. He had the connection and lost it.

1 Tim. 1:5-6 - some people have wandered away from a sincere faith, a pure heart and a good conscience. They had a sincere (not a fake) faith, and still fell away.

1 Tim. 1:19-20 - Paul tells Timothy to hold fast to the faith, and not shipwreck it like Alexander and Hymenaeus. They had it, and then they lost it.

1 Tim. 4:1 - the Spirit "expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith." They had the faith, then lost it.

1 Tim. 5:8 - if we do not provide for our relatives, we have disowned the faith (we had the faith, and we lost it).

1 Tim. 6:10 - for the love of riches we may wander from the faith (we had the faith, and we can lose the faith).

2 Tim. 4:8 - it is only at end of Saint Paul's life that he has a moral certitude of salvation. But this is after a lifetime of perseverance. As faithful believers in Christ, we must have a moral certitude of salvation, but this is different from being certain of our salvation. We can choose to fall away.

And there are other passages in other books of the New Testament, including the Gospels.

[Brother Adam]

lumberjack

What about the parable of the Judgement? (Did not do unto the least of these....went away into the outerdarkness)

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 14 2004, 01:57 PM'] I know that at that end, our arguments are the same.

But this whole thing about "not being saved in the first place" if you mess up is what I was arguing against. You're saved, you're saved, from CHrist's perspective, no matter what you do inbetween, but our actions can separate or destroy that relationship. But it doen't mena that we were "never saved" in the first place. [/quote]
I messed up, BIG. and it wasn't till after 3 years that I was FINALLY unstupid (is that even a word? ) enough to realize that God just wanted to love me and mold me into His servant...

its not if you "mess up" we all mess up...its if you curse God and turn away from him, and die after having done so...for the duration of your life..that is what I speak of...but like I said, I'm not God, so I can't say for absolutely sure...

and if I get you right, which I think I am...yeah, we are saying the same thing.

[willguy]

Two things,

One, as dUSt said, how do I know that I'm saved and not just thinking I'm saved but will fall away?

[quote]what about the parable of the seeds and the soil?

I haven't read it in a while, but it comes to mind... [/quote]

Actually, the parable of the seeds works better for someone against OSAS. There are some that grow and then die. If once-saved always-saved was true, then once you grow you couldn't ungrow.

[Justified Saint]

It is important to realize:

a) if a person becomes a believer and happens to remain a believer for the rest of their life...osas is proven, and I say NO that doesn't prove it.

b) if a person believes and then falls away and then believes again...osas is proven because God always brings you back, and I say NO that doesn't prove it.

See how the doctrine itself has been molded to seemingly fit every possibility? The one test it doesn't pass though is the test of the Bible.

Thank you Dave for posting some good Scriptures, its always good to see what they have to say especially on an issue like salvation.

Edited April 14, 2004 by Justified Saint

[the lumberjack]

willguy, thats exactly it. if you become saved, you are saved despite yourself...kind of like your papal infallibility(notice I said KIND OF LIKE, we aren't infallible)...despite whatever you do, God will call you back to Himself...

so technically, you can't ungrow...

------


and JS,

how do both prove it and NOT prove it at the same time?

"happens to remain"? you make it sound like its a luck of the draw..."OOOOOH, sorry, you really weren't saved. enjoy hell!"

either you are, or you aren't. and if you are, God will hold you in His hand.

didn't david say that "even in the place of the dead, you are there"? no matter where we go, He is there...calling us to Him, to follow as we should.

[willguy]

[quote]so technically, you can't ungrow...[/quote]

But in the parable, some of the plants DIE. In my opinion , dying is pretty much the ultimate ungrowth.

[quote]He is there...calling us to Him, to follow as we should.
[/quote]

Yes, but we can reject His call. We can also follow His call for a while and then turn (case in point: Judas Iscariot).

[Hananiah]

I'm noticing an uncanny absence of rebuttals to either my post on the first page or Dave's post on the second. Is anyone going to give it a shot?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 14 2004, 04:07 PM'] God just wanted to love me and mold me into His servant...
[/quote]
That's why He brought you here to learn about His Church.

God Bless, Love in Christ,
ironmonk

[the lumberjack]

and I am!

and I praise Him for all the brothers and sisters I have in Him...everywhere.

from my church that I go to, to the brothers in WA, OK, TX, CO, WV, and mulls out in CT!

word up.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]how do both prove it and NOT prove it at the same time?[/quote]

Sorry for the confusion, it doesn't prove both, some believe it proves OSAS and I am saying it doesn't.

OSAS has developed an elaborate scheme behind its simple appearance. Truth is it has no place in the Bible.

Of course God is faithful, nobody is contesting that. You though have forced your understanding of OSAS into the idea of God being faithful where there is no evidence for it. That is what we call reading into the text and not out of it. Tell me, is it the Catholic contention that God is not always standing there, that he is not faithful? As a Catholic I can tell you no, that isn't the case. You assume that unless you believe in OSAS, God isn't faithful. That is a truly sad and unfortunate interpretation of God's saving work.

[the lumberjack]

oh, btw, this is a BUMP for those that missed it the first time.

and JS...it is very simple.

[quote]OSAS has developed an elaborate scheme behind its simple appearance. Truth is it has no place in the Bible.

Of course God is faithful, nobody is contesting that. You though have forced your understanding of OSAS into the idea of God being faithful where there is no evidence for it. That is what we call reading into the text and not out of it. Tell me, is it the Catholic contention that God is not always standing there, that he is not faithful? As a Catholic I can tell you no, that isn't the case. You assume that unless you believe in OSAS, God isn't faithful. That is a truly sad and unfortunate interpretation of God's saving work.[/quote]

if God is NOT faithful in the way I speak of, then why did David write Psalm 139 he way he did?

[quote]1 O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me.

2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

[b]7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

[u]10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.[/u]

11 If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

20 For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.[/b][/quote]

God knows all and sees all...and no matter where we go or what we do, He will keep us in His hand when we become His children...or are you calling David a liar?



God bless.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
God knows all and sees all...and no matter where we go or what we do, He will keep us in His hand when we become His children...or are you calling David a liar?[/quote]
No, but David was a poet. Meanwhile, St. Paul, who was not a poet, said we had to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, and described his own faith as a race that he had to keep vigorously running for fear of losing the race and forfeiting the prize.

You've been asking for concise, biblical support for our beliefs. There's one. Now, I'd like an answer. How do you explain the doctrine of once saved, always saved in light of what St. Paul said? If he was saved and could not lose his salvation, then why did he describe the Christian faith as a race that one had to keep running, lest one lose the race and forfeit the prize? This description is found repeatedly in more than one of his letters.

[the lumberjack]

you answer mine first.

David was a poet...so? He was also a King.

a warrior.
a champion.
an alduterer.
a man after God's own heart.

His words are still found in the Bible...and unless you don't use all the bible, as all catholics on here say you do, you are not the right church I should be lookin at.

give me just a couple of verses that Paul uses for the race...I can't recall them right now...thanks!

love.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
you answer mine first.

David was a poet...so? He was also a King.

a warrior.
a champion.
an alduterer.
a man after God's own heart.

His words are still found in the Bible...and unless you don't use all the bible, as all catholics on here say you do, you are not the right church I should be lookin at.[/quote]
Okay. David wrote about trusting in God's help. Great, we agree with that. We absolutely trust that God will deliver us from sin, and we absolutely trust in His grace and mercy. But we also know that He's given us free will, and that we have the capacity to reject Him, despite the grace that He's constantly giving us. We don't believe that God takes our free will away at Baptism, so we believe that it's still possible for us to reject Him after Baptism.

This does not contradict David's psalm about hopefully trusting in the Lord. Catholics do the same thing. We don't trust ourselves to always accept what He's offering us, and that's the difference between Catholic theology and OSAS. We know that we can reject Him, so that leads us to struggle to persevere through prayer and works.

Now, I would like you to answer what I said about St. Paul and his race metaphor. Look in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27, Philippians 3:10-14, Hebrews 12:1, Ephesians 6:10-18, and 2 Timothy 2:4-13. I especially like Philippians 3:10-14:

[quote]...that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conforms to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.  [b]Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on[/b] so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.  [b]Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and [b]reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.[/b][/quote]
How do you explain that in regard to OSAS? If anyone could have been assured of his salvation, wouldn't it have been Paul? Then why isn't he sure of it? Why does he say he isn't there yet? Wasn't he baptized? Didn't he profess that Jesus Christ was his personal Lord and Savior? "Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet..."