Osas

[the lumberjack]

[quote]1Cor 9:24 24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever.
26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air.
27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.[/quote]

does this mean that only one person will be saved? or what does it mean in the context it was used in...I'll post more tomorrow.

God bless.

[Good Friday]

[quote][b]LJ writes:[/b]
does this mean that only one person will be saved? or what does it mean in the context it was used in...I'll post more tomorrow.[/quote]
Way to dance all around that without actually answering it.

When you come back tomorrow, I'd ask that you specifically address the highlighted portions of Philippians, as well as addressing the possibility of Paul's disqualification from winning the prize in Corinthians. It's not fair to ask us to answer questions and then be unwilling to answer them yourself.

[the lumberjack]

and I'd like YOU to answer what David said...that no matter where we go or what we do, God will be there...

poet or not, its still the Word of God.

I'll probly reply tomorrow or later today...kinda busy.

God bless.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]...that no matter where we go or what we do, God will be there[/quote]

Amen to that! I defer to Good Friday's post above:

[quote]Okay. David wrote about trusting in God's help. Great, we agree with that. We absolutely trust that God will deliver us from sin, and we absolutely trust in His grace and mercy. But we also know that He's given us free will, and that we have the capacity to reject Him, despite the grace that He's constantly giving us. We don't believe that God takes our free will away at Baptism, so we believe that it's still possible for us to reject Him after Baptism.[/quote]

Did you miss that?

This would be a very consistent idea throughout the NT and that is what the Word of God is about, consistency and not trying to make it a Word of contradiction as your doctrine forces us to conclude.

Consider the comments in Galatians 5:
[quote][b]For you were called for freedom, brothers[/b]. [b][u]But [i]do not use this freedom[/i] as an opportunity for the flesh[/u][/b]; [b]rather, serve one another through love[/b].[/quote]

So Christians still have the freedom to choose? What are the consequences of choosing the flesh again?

[quote]Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, 15 drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. [b]I [u][i]warn you, as I warned you before[/i][/u], that those who do such things [i]will not inherit the kingdom of God[/i].[/b][/quote]

This is one of many "problem" texts for those in the osas school.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Justified Saint

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Consider the comments in Galatians 5:
 
For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love.

So Christians still have the freedom to choose? What are the consequences of choosing the flesh again?[/quote]

okay, I can only post real quick, but look the whole passage, could you?
Paul refers to our freedom in Christ...not our free will.

he says that just because we are called to freedom in Christ, DOES NOT mean we have freedom thru Christ to do what we wish, and "still be free in Christ"...

but you know what? thats just a "protestant private interpretation" probly not worth much to you...not that it matters much to me. whether or not you like it, its the truth. directly from the Bible.

amen and God bless.

[Justified Saint]

Lumber, are you denying that this freedom can be used to do works of the flesh as Paul says? Are you denying what the text explicitly states?

When defending Protestant doctrine it seems that in a lot of cases we have to pretend that what the author is saying they don't actually mean.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Justified Saint

[willguy]

lumberjack,

Simple question:

If I were right now to reject God, worship Satan, have sex with a couple people and then go on a mad killing spree before taking my own life without any remorse, would I go to heaven?

[font="Impact"]Editted: because I can't spell lumberjack[/font]

Edited April 26, 2004 by willguy

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Apr 25 2004, 05:57 PM'] Lumber, are you denying that this freedom can be used to do works of the flesh as Paul says? Are you denying what the text explicitly states?

When defending Protestant doctrine it seems that in a lot of cases we have to pretend that what the author is saying they don't actually mean. [/quote]
JS, did you fully read what I posted?

am I denying that this freedom can be used to do works of the flesh?

yes, according to you I am...we are free in Christ...but not to do what we wish... c'mon, this isn't this hard to grasp.

the freedom Paul speaks of in this verse, as opposed to our free will are different.

he speaks of our freedom in Christ, and how we are NOT to think that we have freedom THRU Christ to do what we want...including works of the flesh.

how is that misconstruing what he is saying? its there in B&W...

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 14 2004, 11:59 AM'] one can't know if somebody else is saved.


we can make an educated guess. we can 'know' by the fruit that one bears. if one belongs to God they will do certain things, like share the Gospel, attend church, read the bible, speak of godly things, avoid sinful things....and on and on.


somebody isn't saved because they do these things, and if they don't do these things that doesn't mean they aren't saved. but this is the most reliable evidence we have. [/quote]
wow, so the works that you do are evidence of God's grace working through you... that sounds Catholic to me!

[CreepyCrawler]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 14 2004, 03:09 AM']

i would severely question if someone was ever saved if they ended up leaving the church for the life of an atheist, a homosexual (one of my fellow mc's had it happen to one of the fellow emcees in his crew), or whatever else....which I've seen...among other things.

[/quote]
so you won't know if you're saved until you die, based on God's grace working in your life? how is that not catholic?



Another question: if someone were to become athiest, is that just a 'backsliding' time period or an actual rejection? and wouldn't that athiest think that he was saved at the moment he 'got saved?' how would you know the difference? and if you say the same things and accept christ all the same -- how is it that one person is saved and another not? is it more of a predestination thing where God only saves certain people and even if you 'accept christ' you're not actually saved if you're not chosen by God? if not, then how does God determine who's saved or not? sorry for all the questions, i'm just curious.

[Justified Saint]

[quote]JS, did you fully read what I posted?

am I denying that this freedom can be used to do works of the flesh?

yes, according to you I am...we are free in Christ...but not to do what we wish... c'mon, this isn't this hard to grasp.

the freedom Paul speaks of in this verse, as opposed to our free will are different.

he speaks of our freedom in Christ, and how we are NOT to think that we have freedom THRU Christ to do what we want...including works of the flesh.

how is that misconstruing what he is saying? its there in B&W... [/quote]

Then please show me where it says that. Again, I shall allow the text to speak:

"[b]For you were called for freedom, brothers. [u]But do not [i]use[/i] this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh[/u]; rather, serve one another through love.[/b]"

It is this that by your own admission you deny. Does Paul not mean it when he tells us not to use our freedom to serve the flesh because it is not possible to do so? Is Paul contradicting himself? Indeed, why should we be warned against works of the flesh if it is [b]impossible[/b] to do works of the flesh? Your doctrine and eisegesis only leaves us with unanswered questions.

You continue to demonstrate your ability to read into the text but have yet to show us your ability to get anything out of the text.

Edited April 26, 2004 by Justified Saint

[Justified Saint]

Notice that in the first verse of chapter 5 we have the same warning.

[quote] [b]For freedom Christ set us free; [u]so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery[/b][/u].[/quote]

Isn't this warning very superfluous to the student of osas? Indeed it is because it is impossible not to remain free once you are free. Paul has a different take on it though.

[willguy]

[quote]i would severely question if someone was ever saved if they ended up leaving the church for the life of an atheist, a homosexual (one of my fellow mc's had it happen to one of the fellow emcees in his crew), or whatever else....which I've seen...among other things[/quote]

First of all, you say that you'd question if that person was ever saved. If you'd question it then you admit that there is a chance they were and now aren't.

I'm assuming that what you mean to say is that you'd say that they never were saved. So the question is, did they think they were saved? Possibly. SO they thought they were saved but actually weren't. Then how do we know if we are actually saved or just think we are and are going to fall away?

[Katholikos]

[quote name='willguy' date='Apr 25 2004, 06:29 PM']
If I were right now to reject God, worship Satan, have sex with a couple people and then go on a mad killing spree before taking my own life without any remorse, would I go to heaven?

[/quote]
No, Willguy, you're not "saved," because [I presume] as a Catholic, you have not "accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" and therefore you have not been "born again" according to the Protestant formula, based on their private biblical interpretation. So you'd go to hell, for sure.

I, on the other hand, "got saved" several times by answering "altar calls" and "accepting Jesus Christ -- " etc. So if I were to do all those things I would not lose my salvation, as long as I had faith, because Once Saved, Always Saved, right?

I now belong to the Church Christ founded for the salvation of the world, the Church that wrote the New Testament. But nevertheless, I could lose my salvation through serious sin at any time! So, I'm "working out my salvation with fear and trembling" as St. Paul advised.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

P.S. Do y'all know that there are concurrent OSAS threads on the Debate Table, as Cmom pointed out?

[willguy]

[quote]P.S. Do y'all know that there are concurrent OSAS threads on the Debate Table, as Cmom pointed out?
[/quote]

Yep. Mine was created, then it kind of fell down the list, then the new one was created, then mine was bumped back.

[the lumberjack]

THIS ONE is actually an OLD one that I brought back.

and JS, I'll respond later...I gotta get to bed for now.

God bless.

[the lumberjack]

and really quickly also, Paul was speaking to the Galatians of "freedom", he was speaking to them because Jews were trying to keep them under the law, the bondage and slavery of the law. this is why Paul speaks of our freedom in Christ in Galatians 5.

but if you want to see it out of the passage context, I'll play your game, you rogue.

context context context.

love.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Apr 25 2004, 10:46 PM']

context context context.

[/quote]
The New Testament was written from the heart of the newborn Catholic Church, by Catholic believers, to Catholic believers. That is its true context. Attempts to interpret it outside the context of the organic, living, believing, teaching Church results in reader confusion and misunderstanding. That's how OSAS and other misinterpretations of Scripture developed -- by outsiders reading and failing to understand the meaning of the Church's words.

OSAS does not appear in the historical record until 1521, when it sprang full blown from the head of Martin Luther, sixteen centuries too late to be the teaching of Christ and His Apostles.

I once was blind, but now I see.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='Apr 26 2004, 12:31 AM'] I once was blind, but now I see.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos [/quote]
Amen.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='Apr 25 2004, 11:31 PM'] The New Testament was written from the heart of the newborn Catholic Church, by Catholic believers, to Catholic believers. That is its true context. Attempts to interpret it outside the context of the organic, living, believing, teaching Church results in reader confusion and misunderstanding. That's how OSAS and other misinterpretations of Scripture developed -- by outsiders reading and failing to understand the meaning of the Church's words. [/quote]
you're funny like ironmonk is funny. context of a letter Paul wrote is unchangeable, whether it be by the Roman Catholic Church, or by some cultist group that takes select verses for its own use (Jim Jones, David Koresh, Heaven's Gate, the Mormons, JW's....)

you can say anything you like likos, its all good. I understand that if you couldn't take certain verses to mean certain things, things wouldn't get done the way they do in your religion.

oh well, so much for keeping the Bible in context...I guess so long as you can apply it as necessary, its in good context...

God bless.