Israeli Soldiers Kill Peace Activists

[Jesus_lol]

[url="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/31/871561/-Israel-massacres-unarmed-peace-activists"]http://www.dailykos....peace-activists[/url]


[quote]
By now you will have heard about Israel's [url="http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html"]assault on the Gaza Freedom Flotilla[/url], in the course of which, according to current estimates, at least 10 and as many as 20 peace activists were killed, and dozens injured. The [url="http://witnessgaza.com/"]flotilla[/url] was carrying hundreds of activists, including a Nobel Peace Laureate, along with thousands of tons of humanitarian aid to distribute to the besieged population of Gaza.

The narrative from Israel has been almost comically predictable, as has the extent to which that narrative has been accepted by news organisations. In the week leading up to the mission Israeli officials repeatedly threatened the ships, with the Foreign Minister going so far as to label the unarmed humanitarian voyage a "[url="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3895506,00.html"]violent[/url]" threat. The flotilla was smeared as "pro-Hamas" and condemned for refusing to deliver a letter to Cpl. Shalit from his father (a claim that, while [url="http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/gaza-aid-convoy-refuses-to-deliver-package-to-gilad-shalit-1.292541"]repeated uncritically[/url] in the purportedly 'liberal' Israeli newspaper [i]Ha'aretz[/i], is a "[url="http://palsolidarity.org/2010/05/12531/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+palsolidarity+%28International+Solidarity+Movement%29"]a blatant lie[/url]"), and its attempts to dock in Gaza were declared an "[url="http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/MFA+Spokesman/2010/The-flotillas-goal-is-the-delegitimization-of-Israel-29-May-2010.htm"]an infringement of Israel's sovereignty[/url]". Needless to say, this last accusation does not sit well with Israel's claim that it does not occupy and has no intention to annex Gaza (the Israeli human rights NGO [url="http://www.gisha.org/index.php?intLanguage=2&intItemId=1784&intSiteSN=113"]Gisha[/url] notes, in this vein, that the assault on the Freedom Flotilla "is proof that despite claims to the contrary, Israel never 'disengaged' from the Gaza Strip but rather continues to control its borders – land, air and sea").

The Israeli navy [url="http://warincontext.org/2010/05/30/israeli-navy-approaching-freedom-flotilla/"]began harassing[/url] the convoy when it was still well over 100 miles from Gaza, deep into international waters. As the ships drew closer the Israeli military attempted to [url="http://twitter.com/freegazaorg/status/15063346272"]disrupt their communications[/url] (journalists were reporting from on-board and a live video feed was streaming online) and began issuing threats. Finally, Israeli forces attacked, with soldiers descending from helicopters to board the ships. Initially Israel [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm"]claimed[/url] that no activists were killed. It then performed an abrupt reversal, familiar to veterans of its [url="http://leninology.blogspot.com/2009/01/lie-you-werent-supposed-to-believe.html"]clumsy rhetorical acrobatics[/url] during the Gaza massacre, reporting that at least 10 people were killed, but claiming that it was the peace activists who "attacked" first (as one commentator [url="http://twitter.com/iRevolt/status/15093391537"]observed[/url]: "[p]eculiar how Israel is always violently attacked but it's only the 'attackers' who die"). Thus news organisations reported that [url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/7789117/At-least-16-dead-as-Israeli-troops-storm-Gaza-aid-flotilla.html"]"[f]ighting broke out between[/url]" ([url="http://leninology.blogspot.com/2010/05/israel-attacks-gaza-flotilla-kills-at.html"]via[/url]) the activists and the soldiers, as if unarmed peace activists could ever meaningfully "fight" highly-trained, heavily armed members of one of the most sophisticated militaries on the planet. The BBC went even further, intoning, over footage of what was clearly a direct attack on unarmed civilians, that the Israeli soldiers were attempting to "[url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195997.stm"]control passengers[/url]" ([url="http://twitter.com/mariexen/status/15093106928"]via[/url]). Eyewitness reports, by contrast, described how Israeli forces started shooting "[url="http://twitter.com/freegazaorg/status/15090503156"]the moment their feet hit the deck. They shot civilians asleep[/url]". "This was not a confrontation", they report, "[url="http://twitter.com/freegazaorg/status/15086272687"][t]his was a massacre[/url]". An al-Jazeera journalist aboard the ship reported that "[url="http://www9.gazetevatan.com/israil-turk-bayrakli-yardim-gemisinde-olum-kustu/308396/1/Gundem"]despite the white flag being raised, the Israeli Army is still shooting, still firing live munitions[/url]".

Why would Israel attack the flotilla? It's worth recalling what the activists were trying to do. [url="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/amira-hass-lexicon-of-most-misleading-terms-in-israeli-palestinian-conflict-1.293131?localLinksEnabled=false"]Since 1991[/url] Israel has kept the Gaza Strip under siege, the intensity of which has varied over time but never to the extent of allowing the residents of Gaza to live something approaching decent, dignified lives. Following Hamas's 2006 election victory and its takeover of Gaza in 2007, undertaken in response to [url="http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804"]a US/Israeli-backed coup[/url] attempt, the closure was sharply intensified, provoking what human rights organisations described as a "[url="http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/policy/conflict_disasters/gaza_implosion.html"]humanitarian implosion[/url]" of "unprecedented" scale. The objectives, which also motivated the Dec '08-Jan '09 Gaza massacre, were clear: to punish Palestinians for voting the 'wrong' way in the 2006 elections; to entrench the separation between Gaza and the West Bank; to isolate Hamas diplomatically and thereby thwart its threatened 'peace offensive' (yesterday, in a further blow to Israeli rejectionism, alleged 'hardliner' Khalid Meshal again affirmed that Hamas is prepared to end violence once Israel "[url="http://is.gd/cw6Cp"]returns to the '67 borders[/url]"); to [url="http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2009/01/18/a-temporary-ceasefire/"]undermine the 'moderates' within Hamas[/url] at the expense of the 'hardliners'; and to turn the population of Gaza into a "humanitarian" as opposed to a "political" problem. To these ends, Israel, the US and the EU have systematically reduced the 1.5 million residents of Gaza – most of whom are children - to poverty, unemployment and aid dependency. They have, as one senior official explained, "[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel"]put the Palestinians on a diet[/url]".

The "diet" has been an extreme one:

[list][*]since the intensification of the siege in June 2007, "the formal economy in Gaza has collapsed". ([url="http://is.gd/cvYtf"]More than 80 UN and aid agencies[/url] [.pdf])[/list][list][*] "61% of people in the Gaza Strip are ... food insecure", of which "65% are children under 18 years". ([url="http://is.gd/cvZxA"]UN FAO[/url])[/list][list][*] since June 2007, "the number of Palestine refugees unable to access food and lacking the means to purchase even the most basic items, such as soap, school stationery and safe drinking water, has tripled". ([url="http://www.irinnews.org/report.aspx?ReportID=89302"]UNRWA[/url])[/list][list][*] "in February 2009, the level of anemia in babies (9-12 months) was as high as 65.5%" ([url="http://is.gd/cvZxA"]UN FAO[/url])[/list][list][*] "water resources in the Gaza Strip are critically insufficient" ([url="http://is.gd/cvZxA"]UN FAO[/url])[/list][list][*] "the blockade has been a major obstacle to repairing the damage done by Israeli air attacks and destruction. Nearly none of the 3,425 homes destroyed during Cast Lead have been reconstructed, displacing around 20,000 people. Only 17.5% of the value of the damages to educational facilities has been repaired ... [T]he infrastructure which remains unrepaired is often that which is most essential to the basic needs and well-being of the Gaza population." ([url="http://unispal.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/276b3267fdf0a0948525772d0051b669?OpenDocument"]UNDP[/url])[/list]
The siege of Gaza is explicitly directed against the civilian population. It has been condemned by nearly every government in the world, and according to UN agencies and human rights organisations it constitutes "collective punishment ... a flagrant violation of international law" ([url="http://thereport.amnesty.org/sites/default/files/AIR2010_AZ_EN.pdf#page=129"]Amnesty International[/url] [.pdf]), possibly amounting to a "[url="http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2008/12/10/richard-falk-gaza-siege-a-crime-against-humanity/"]crime against humanity[/url]". In attempting to deliver aid to Gaza the Freedom Flotilla activists were not merely highlighting the brutality of the siege, they were challenging Israel's basic right to dominate and control the occupied territories. Hence the hysteria from Israel, and hence the attack.Even so, Israel's cavalier disregard for its own, already battered PR image is surprising. To attack a convoy of unarmed peace activists in international waters, and then to claim that it was the [i]peace activists[/i] who committed the aggression, is so manifestly absurd that one wonders whether Israel truly has, as Chomsky recently [url="http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/otherwise-occupied-the-irrational-stage-1.291839"]implied[/url], entered the "irrational" phase. I would caution against this conclusion. In the run-up to the voyage Israeli officials showed [url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100528/wl_csm/304720_1"]a keen awareness[/url] of the difficult PR situation they were in. It's not that the Israeli government doesn't care about its international image – [url="http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=164050"]far from it[/url]. Rather, the most plausible explanation is that, after a cost-benefit analysis, it determined that it would be able to attack the peace activists on the flotilla, take the concomitant day or two of bad media coverage in its stride, muddy the waters as much as possible with PR spin, and then move on without suffering too much damage as a result. Yousef Munayyer recently observed that '[url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/21/palestinian-nonviolence-israeli-repression"]Palestinian non-violence requires global non-silence[/url]'. Evidently, the Israeli government took the risk of attacking the flotilla on the presumption that the world would be muted in its response.




[/quote]

Edited May 31, 2010 by Jesus_lol

[Winchester]

We would stop an unmonitored humanitarian mission going into enemy territory.

[StMichael]

Would stay away from that leftist website that gives out bad info.

Here is a newspaper report:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

Hardly peace activists when they were sporting knives.

Israel Navy commandos: Gaza flotilla activists tried to lynch us
Nine activists on board Gaza-bound flotilla killed in violent clashes when Israel Navy commandos boarded ships; 7 commandos hurt, 2 seriously.

Activists on board a six-ship flotilla carrying aid to the Gaza Strip tried to lynch the Israel Navy commandos who boarded their Turkish-flagged boat early Monday, Israel Defense Forces sources told Haaretz on Monday afternoon. At least nine people were killed and several more were wounded in the fighting that erupted aboard one of the ships.

The IDF confirmed that at least seven Navy commandos had been wounded, two of them seriously, in a fight which apparently broke out after activists tried to seize their weapons.

The commandos, who intercepted the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara after it ignored orders to turn back from its course to Gaza, said they had encountered violent resistance from activists armed with sticks and knives. According to the commandos, the activists threw one of the soldiers from the upper deck to the lower after they boarded. The organizers of the flotilla said the troops opened fire first.

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.

"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said. The IDF said it had confiscated two pistols from the boat.

One of the commandos told reporters he descended by rope from a helicopter onto one of the six ships in the convoy and was immediately attacked by a group of people waiting for them.

"They beat us with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us."

A Reuters cameraman on the Israel Navy ship Kidon, sailing close to the convoy, said IDF commanders monitoring the operation were surprised by the strong resistance put up by the pro-Palestinian activists.

One of the commandos said some of the soldiers were stripped of their helmets and equipment and a several were tossed from the top deck to a lower deck, forcing them to jump into the sea to escape.

"They jumped me, hit me with clubs and bottles and stole my rifle," one of the commandos said. "I pulled out my pistol and had no choice but to shoot."

The soldiers said they were forced to open fire after the activists struck one of their comrades in the head and trampled on him. A senior IDF field commander ordered the soldiers then to respond with fire, a decision which the commandos said received full backing the military echelon.

The IDF said its rules of engagement allowed troops to open fire in what it called a "life-threatening situation".

"Navy fighters took control of six ships that tried to violate the naval blockade [of the Gaza Strip]," said a statement from the IDF. "During the takeover, the soldiers encountered serious physical violence by the protesters, who attacked them with live fire."

Elite troops from Shayetet 13, a naval commando unit, boarded the protest boats at around 4:00 A.M. Al Jazeera reported Monday morning that the Gaza aid flotilla had changed course to avoid a confrontation with Israeli warships.

Some 700 pro-Palestinian activists were on the boats, including 1976 Nobel Peace Prize laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire of Northern Ireland, European legislators. The boats were carrying 10,000 tons of humanitarian aid and supplies to Gaza.

The Israel Navy had been operating under the assumption that the activists manning the boats would not heed their calls to turn around, and Israeli troops had been prepared to board the ships to steer them away from the Gaza shores toward the Israeli port city of Ashdod.

Huwaida Arraf, one of the flotilla organizers, said the conv9oy began the journey from international waters off the coast of Cyprus on Sunday afternoon, after two days of delays. According to organizers, the flotilla had been expected to reach Gaza, about 400 kilometers away, on Monday afternoon, and two more ships had been expected to follow in a second wave.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 12:48 PM' timestamp='1275324488' post='2121214']
[url="http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/31/871561/-Israel-massacres-unarmed-peace-activists"]http://www.dailykos....peace-activists[/url]
[/quote]

[Jesus_lol]

I fail to see how any of this is self defense. they are not allowed to board them in international waters, this is like breaking into someones house, brandishing a gun, then shooting them in the face when they throw a punch at you, then claiming self defense.

the ship was checked and had no weapons aboard it. aside from what appears to be kitchen utensils and found items.

lets not forget that when the white flag went up, the israeli boats continued firing live ammunition at the boat.

so far at least 9 of the activists, 19 by some reports, have died.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1275334133' post='2121371']
I fail to see how any of this is self defense. they are not allowed to board them in international waters, this is like breaking into someones house, brandishing a gun, then shooting them in the face when they throw a punch at you, then claiming self defense.

the ship was checked and had no weapons aboard it. aside from what appears to be kitchen utensils and found items.

lets not forget that when the white flag went up, the israeli boats continued firing live ammunition at the boat.

so far at least 9 of the activists, 19 by some reports, have died.
[/quote]
What report are you looking at that says that? IDF says there were weapons aboard. A reporter interviewing an IDF spokesman actually called knives and batons "passive resistance". [url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians;_ylt=Au6G9QOxP_FVir_VAGOoDlhbbBAF;_ylu=X3oDMTNiOWg5dmpqBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwNTMxL21sX2lzcmFlbF9wYWxlc3RpbmlhbnMEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXIEY3BvcwMxBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDaXNyYWVsaWNvbW1h"]One link[/url]
[url="http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middle-east/Israel--Commandos-Acted-in-Self-Defense-95266994.html"]Another.[/url]

The aid did not pass through any checkpoints--which is something any nation would require of aid going to enemy territory. Had they pursued proper means, they could have taken aid to Gaza.


This is more like someone standing in the street saying they are going to bring a bunch of stuff to someone who has been attacking you for years and when they try to push through to the person who has been attacking you, you try to stop them, they fight and you fight back. I fail to see why Israel should permit unchecked boats to enter a terrorist run area.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Winchester

[Jesus_lol]

I fail to see how unarmed peace activists attacked Israeli warships.

and of course the IDF would say there were weapons aboard. i wouldnt be surprised if they went around sprinkling drugs on all the victims.
if my ship was being fired upon and boarded, i would look for improvised weaponry as well.

It was checked in Turkey, didnt have any weapons, was transporting stuff like wheelchairs.

how is an attack like this in international waters any different from piracy?

or can Israel do no wrong?

[SaintOfVirtue]

[quote name='Winchester' date='31 May 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1275333271' post='2121352']
We would stop an unmonitored humanitarian mission going into enemy territory.
[/quote]

I concur.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='31 May 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1275336236' post='2121404']
I concur.
[/quote]

of course in this case, "stop" means drop guys out of helicopters at 2am and kill 19 civilians.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275336109' post='2121402']
I fail to see how unarmed peace activists attacked Israeli warships.[/quote]

They armed themselves with metal bars and the guns of Israeli troops.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275336109' post='2121402']and of course the IDF would say there were weapons aboard. [/quote]

Of course the activist are going to say they were fired on unprovoked.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275336109' post='2121402']i wouldnt be surprised if they went around sprinkling drugs on all the victims.[/quote]

Dave Chappelle.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275336109' post='2121402']if my ship was being fired upon and boarded, i would look for improvised weaponry as well.[/quote]

It was boarded then fired upon, because they attacked the Israelis.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275336109' post='2121402']It was checked in Turkey, didnt have any weapons, was transporting stuff like wheelchairs.[/quote]

Whoopty doopty doo, Israeli must proof that. If the boat is going to enter Israeli waters it should be checked by Israel.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275336109' post='2121402']how is an attack like this in international waters any different from piracy?[/quote]

Because this boat carrying who knows what wants to enter into Israeli waters, and unload its cargo onto Israeli land. It had to be inspected by the Israeli. The Israelis were attacked and they responded.

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='31 May 2010 - 04:01 PM' timestamp='1275336109' post='2121402']or can Israel do no wrong?
[/quote]

No it can, but getting info from leftist activist is not the way to go about finding when they have done wrong.

[CatherineM]

I wonder if a US Navy Seal would admit to having his rifle taken away from him by someone with a club?

[Hassan]

Israel has the right to send commandos to board a boat in international waters heading for an entity over which Israel claims to have relinquished sovereignty and Ahmajinedad is shocked and appalled that a government would use such heavy handed tactics against humanitarian activists. Both Israel and Iran's leaders either have a beautiful sense of irony and absurdity or they feel no obligation to maintain even the most elementary standards of intellectual coherence and honesty.

Let's start at the beginning. As I recall, during Israel's 2009 incursion into Gaza the claim was the Israel had totally relinquished sovereignty over Gaza. Back then the claim was used to buttress evidence that no matter what Israel did the Palestinians would continue to be belligerent. I'm not aware of Israel reasserting any claims regarding the legal status of Gaza since then yet these actions seem strikingly similar to how a government would respond to an alien vessel trying to enter land it considered subject to its sovereignty. Legally, of course, Israel has for years claimed to have relinquished sovereignty over Gaza even though under International Law, of course, they never have. If Russia sense FSB forces to raid and inspect vessels coming into our ports without our permission, would we have a problem with this? Of course we would, because it would be a massive affront to the most fundamental aspect of sovereignty. By doing so they would be asserting their right to the legitimate utilization of violence in our territory, without our permission. Which would be a blatant affront to the United State's monopoly on the legitimate use of violence in that territory, this monopoly is fundamental to what is means for a state to exercise sovereignty.

Is Gaza a part of Israel or not? Has Israel relinquished sovereignty or not? Israel wants it both ways. They want to be able act like they have sovereignty over Gaza without accepting the legal responsibility that an explicit claim to sovereignty would entail.

Then there is the question of Israel's understanding of what 'international water' means. This boat was, by all accounts I have seen, clearly in international water. Does Israel have the right to board any vessel in international waters it wishes? Apparently so.

Let's set aside the question of how it is that Israel came to understand that it had a right to send its commando's onto that ship in the first place and ask how this episode turned as ugly as it did. What were the conditions that led Israel soldiers to feel that the situation was such that firing their weapons was an appropriate response? Were they in a combat zone, those conditions would likely be minimal. But as they were boarding a boat transporting humanitarian supplies in international waters as it was heading for a port in a territory over which Israel claims to no longer exercise sovereignty. I have had to disarm an individual behaving aggressively with a knife before. I have had to deescalate a confrontation in which a mentally unstable individual was slashing at me with a knife. In all cases I was able to respond to the situation without without behaving in a heavy handed matter. If I can do it, I would expect that, in all but the most extreme circumstances, a trained Israeli commando could do it.

What did the activists do that merited opening fire on them? How did activists take two pistols from Israeli commandos? We need to know more. But unless this was an outright ambush I don't see how Israel will come out looking good here.

The only pretense that Israel had to be on that ship was a blockade which is almost certainly illegal under international law. Those Israeli soldiers who were injured deserve sympathy but the officials who put them on that ship deserve condemnation. The boat had made its presence and intentions known well in advance.

Israel has a right to defend itself and its people from aggression. It does not have the right to do whatever it wants to secure its people and itself from whatever it deems to be conceivably a threat, no country does.

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='31 May 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1275342990' post='2121530']
I wonder if a US Navy Seal would admit to having his rifle taken away from him by someone with a club?
[/quote]


I wonder if he did if he would still be a Navy SEAL.

Maybe. I know a Force Recon Marine who was on a ship with some Navy SEALs in the armory. In a moment of carelessness one pointed a pistol that he believed to be unloaded at his friend's head and pulled the trigger. I guess it was supposed to be funny. It wasn't funny the moment it became horribly obvious that the pistol was not actually unloaded (I guess it had one in the chamber). Maybe 999,999 times out of 1,000,000 it would have been an irresponsible but harmless joke. But even the best trained people make careless mistakes at time, like failing to unload their weapons properly.

Edited May 31, 2010 by Hassan

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='31 May 2010 - 01:15 PM' timestamp='1275336926' post='2121421']
They armed themselves with metal bars and the guns of Israeli troops.
[/quote]

this seems more reactionary than proactive armament. and also incredibly embarrassing for those troops.

[quote]
Of course the activist are going to say they were fired on unprovoked.
[/quote]

video evidence seems to support this, as does basic common sense.

[quote]
Dave Chappelle.
[/quote]

glad you caught that. exactly.

[quote]
It was boarded then fired upon, because they attacked the Israelis.
[/quote]

hold on, it was illegally boarded, accounts claiming they started shooting almost immediately, there was some obviously futile resistance, more activists are killed, they raise the flag of surrender and are continued being fired upon, and you think its their fault???


[quote]
Whoopty doopty doo, Israeli must proof that. If the boat is going to enter Israeli waters it should be checked by Israel.
[/quote]

yes and the guys doing the shooting were obviously on a fact finding mission.

[quote]
Because this boat carrying who knows what wants to enter into Israeli waters, and unload its cargo onto Israeli land. It had to be inspected by the Israeli. The Israelis were attacked and they responded.
[/quote]

actually no. they were going to unload their cargo onto land that Israel has legally relinquished sovereignty over, it was not their land.


[quote]
No it can, but getting info from leftist activist is not the way to go about finding when they have done wrong.
[/quote]
well you are getting your info on the events from the people accused of doing the killing. so i fail to see how that is an improvement over my sources.

and which US news agencies would you trust in this case? CNN? FOX? Hah.
most US publications forgot to mention this incident was in international waters.

heck, Al Jazeera would be a much better source here as they actually had a few cameras on board, and CNN's big story right now is looking into what the "K" in K-mart represents.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 May 2010 - 06:07 PM' timestamp='1275343634' post='2121544']
I have had to disarm an individual behaving aggressively with a knife before. I have had to deescalate a confrontation in which a mentally unstable individual was slashing at me with a knife. In all cases I was able to respond to the situation without without behaving in a heavy handed matter. If I can do it, I would expect that, in all but the most extreme circumstances, a trained Israeli commando could do it.
[/quote]
An individual. Probably not aboard a boat and not amongst a large group after making entry to the situation by fast roping, I take it?

I think being outnumbered aboard a boat and armed primarily with non-lethal weapons is beyond extreme.

Yes, Israel was right to interdict a flotilla that was trying to run a blockade and had not been searched which was bound for assistance to a terrorist run area.

[Hilde]

There have been several demonstrations here in Europe.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' date='31 May 2010 - 06:34 PM' timestamp='1275345269' post='2121570']
An individual. Probably not aboard a boat and not amongst a large group after making entry to the situation by fast roping, I take it?[/QUOTE]

That's why I said we needed more information. Were these people with knives encountered individual or were the soldiers ambushed en mass. If it was the latter than there response was almost certainly disproportionate, if the former then not.

[QUOTE]I think being outnumbered aboard a boat and armed primarily with non-lethal weapons is beyond extreme.[/QUOTE]

Unless all the people on that boat had armed themselves, then there were outnumbered by unarmed people. They had non-lethal weapons with them but they were also armed with weaponry far more lethal than clubs and kitchen knives and they backed by gunships and helicopters. Not to mention that there was no emergency that forced them to be on the boat when they were in the first place.

[QUOTE]Yes, Israel was right to interdict a flotilla that was trying to run a blockade and had not been searched which was bound for assistance to a terrorist run area.
[/quote]

Does Russia have a right to send FSB special operations units to forcibly board ships operated by third party's heading for Georgia while in international waters?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 May 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1275345824' post='2121578']

Does Russia have a right to send FSB special operations units to forcibly board ships operated by third party's heading for Georgia while in international waters?
[/quote]
When was the last time the group in charge in Georgia launched rockets at Russians or had one of the members of said group blow themselves up in the midst of civilians?

[Hassan]

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/05/201053133047995359.html

That video is interesting. It does not look like an out of control situation that necessitated force just for the Israel forces to get out alive. Of course it is very incomplete and does not show the actual confrontations.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Winchester' date='31 May 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1275346097' post='2121585']
When was the last time the group in charge in Georgia launched rockets at Russians
[/quote]


The last time the Georgian military tried to reassert control over South Ossetia.

[StMichael]

Please lets not get into misinformation that comes from the leftist sites like dailykos.

It is obvious there are 2 sides to this and appears that the Israelis engaged because these boats could have been carry anything other than what was stated. Israel no longer has the US to count on, so I can see them ensuring their own safety.

Of course, even if they are 100% correct, those who hate Israel will condemn them like a bunch of parrots like we see with those attacking Arizona.